Skip to content
  • About
  • Contact
  • Contribute
  • Book
  • Careers
  • Podcast
  • Recommended
  • Speaking
  • All
  • Physician
  • Practice
  • Policy
  • Finance
  • Conditions
  • .edu
  • Patient
  • Meds
  • Tech
  • Social
  • Video
    • All
    • Physician
    • Practice
    • Policy
    • Finance
    • Conditions
    • .edu
    • Patient
    • Meds
    • Tech
    • Social
    • Video
    • About
    • Contact
    • Contribute
    • Book
    • Careers
    • Podcast
    • Recommended
    • Speaking

Start the difficult conversation with ICD patients

John Mandrola, MD
Conditions
June 18, 2012
Share
Tweet
Share

There was a very important article written in the New York Times recently. It highlighted a common medical scenario in my world—the defibrillator (ICD) world.

I am going to talk about ICDs here, but the big picture inherent in this story illustrates the important issue of how best to apply invasive therapy to elderly and sicker patients.

The Times piece delved into medical decision-making when patients present with battery depletion of their defibrillator. The battery longevity of these devices ranges about 5 years. The default among many heart doctors is to assume that patients still need or want their ICD. I can say from personal experience that this is an incorrect assumption. There are other options. The device can be deactivated and left in place, or it can be exchanged for a non-shocking pacemaker.

The Times author, Paula Span, smartly featured an interview with Harvard doctor, Daniel Kramer, who has been a strong and sensible voice in the electrophysiology world. He was a great person to interview for the story because he dares question the status quo. I loved the piece, but was surprised by the vitriol of some of the commenters.

Harvard doctors generally do not need mere medical bloggers to come to their support. But after reading the comments, which I am afraid, may be representative of many, I feel compelled to stand up for Dr. Kramer. Though we have never met, I am a huge fan of his work.

As an ICD implanter, I have seen both the good and bad of these potentially lifesaving devices. Like most invasive treatments in Medicine, the good can be very good and the bad, really horrific. One particular ICD patient comes to my mind. A man brave and strong enough to storm the beaches of Normandy in WWII was transformed to a scared and depressed old man in the years after his defibrillator misfired 72 times. It was awful. These stories stick with you.

Readers need to know that this Times piece recapped an important article that Dr. Kramer recently published in the NEJM. In it, he and co-workers spoke frankly to the medical community about ICD generator changes. The excellent article garnered little fanfare with heart doctors.

Going against strong headwinds in his own community of heart specialists, Dr. Kramer emphasizes three important issues that come about when older patients with ICDs face battery depletion.

First, he asks heart doctors to re-evaluate whether the patient still benefits from the ICD. Perhaps, the original heart problem has improved?

Second, he points out that a patient’s experience living with the device may have changed their mind about keeping it active. Perhaps, a patient with inappropriate shocks no longer wants the device?

Third, since the original implant, a patient may have changed their goals of care. Many patients no longer desire life-sustaining shocks—for whatever reason. It’s their choice; but they aren’t often asked.

You may wonder why such obviousness isn’t the norm?

It’s because our healthcare system imparts significant barriers. Dr. Kramer nicely explains two important hurdles. One is that healthcare in the US is fragmented, especially for the infirmed and elderly. Patients may have many doctors, and care is often not well-coordinated. This means, an installer, a proceduralist like me, is left discussing end-of-life care with patients immediately before ICD surgery. That’s not good. I am married to a hospice doctor, so I sort of know how to manage these conversations. This is not the norm for procedure-oriented heart doctors. The other barrier to getting the elderly the best care is our system’s misguided incentives. In our current fee-for-service system, I am rewarded for doing, not discussing not doing. In fact, not doing stuff is very risky—both legally and professionally (ie. loss of referrals.)

ADVERTISEMENT

Finally, Dr. Kramer and his colleagues call for heart doctors to take the lead in starting “the conversation” with ICD patients. He wants us to share the decision of using invasive, potentially dangerous or ineffective care with the patient. He also asks the scientific community to study the outcomes of patients who undergo elective ICD generator changes. These should not be controversial recommendations.

It’s a huge mistake to equate this kind of smart thinking to rationing. Aligning evidence-based care, especially potentially burdensome surgery in elderly patients, with the goals of the patient is not rationing.  It’s moral, ethical and obvious.

John Mandrola is a cardiologist who blogs at Dr John M.

Prev

James Reason and the foundation of patient safety

June 18, 2012 Kevin 2
…
Next

If the individual mandate is struck down, what happens next?

June 18, 2012 Kevin 2
…

Tagged as: Cardiology

Post navigation

< Previous Post
James Reason and the foundation of patient safety
Next Post >
If the individual mandate is struck down, what happens next?

ADVERTISEMENT

More by John Mandrola, MD

  • What we can learn about weight loss from Al Sharpton

    John Mandrola, MD
  • a desk with keyboard and ipad with the kevinmd logo

    Don’t be foolish enough to think you control outcomes

    John Mandrola, MD
  • a desk with keyboard and ipad with the kevinmd logo

    The problem with Obamacare is that it doesn’t do enough

    John Mandrola, MD

More in Conditions

  • Ancient health secrets for modern life

    Larry Kaskel, MD
  • How the internet broke the doctor-parent trust

    Wendy L. Hunter, MD
  • Mpox isn’t over: A silent epidemic is growing

    Melvin Sanicas, MD
  • How your family system secretly shapes your health

    Su Yeong Kim, PhD
  • The human case for preserving the nipple after mastectomy

    Thomas Amburn, MD
  • Inside the high-stakes world of neurosurgery

    Isaac Yang, MD
  • Most Popular

  • Past Week

    • Why your clinic waiting room may affect patient outcomes

      Ziya Altug, PT, DPT and Shirish Sachdeva, PT, DPT | Conditions
    • The human case for preserving the nipple after mastectomy

      Thomas Amburn, MD | Conditions
    • Nuclear verdicts and rising costs: How inflation is reshaping medical malpractice claims

      Robert E. White, Jr. & The Doctors Company | Policy
    • How new loan caps could destroy diversity in medical education

      Caleb Andrus-Gazyeva | Policy
    • The ethical crossroads of medicine and legislation

      M. Bennet Broner, PhD | Conditions
    • How community and buses saved my retirement

      Raymond Abbott | Conditions
  • Past 6 Months

    • Health equity in Inland Southern California requires urgent action

      Vishruth Nagam | Policy
    • Why transgender health care needs urgent reform and inclusive practices

      Angela Rodriguez, MD | Conditions
    • How restrictive opioid policies worsen the crisis

      Kayvan Haddadan, MD | Physician
    • Why primary care needs better dermatology training

      Alex Siauw | Conditions
    • New student loan caps could shut low-income students out of medicine

      Tom Phan, MD | Physician
    • Why pain doctors face unfair scrutiny and harsh penalties in California

      Kayvan Haddadan, MD | Physician
  • Recent Posts

    • Unused IV catheters cost U.S. hospitals billions

      Piyush Pillarisetti | Policy
    • Why U.S. universities should adopt a standard pre-med major [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • Ancient health secrets for modern life

      Larry Kaskel, MD | Conditions
    • How the internet broke the doctor-parent trust

      Wendy L. Hunter, MD | Conditions
    • Why don’t women in medicine support each other?

      Jessie Mahoney, MD | Physician
    • Why doctors need emotional literacy training

      Vineet Vishwanath | Education

Subscribe to KevinMD and never miss a story!

Get free updates delivered free to your inbox.


Find jobs at
Careers by KevinMD.com

Search thousands of physician, PA, NP, and CRNA jobs now.

Learn more

View 4 Comments >

Founded in 2004 by Kevin Pho, MD, KevinMD.com is the web’s leading platform where physicians, advanced practitioners, nurses, medical students, and patients share their insight and tell their stories.

Social

  • Like on Facebook
  • Follow on Twitter
  • Connect on Linkedin
  • Subscribe on Youtube
  • Instagram

ADVERTISEMENT

ADVERTISEMENT

  • Most Popular

  • Past Week

    • Why your clinic waiting room may affect patient outcomes

      Ziya Altug, PT, DPT and Shirish Sachdeva, PT, DPT | Conditions
    • The human case for preserving the nipple after mastectomy

      Thomas Amburn, MD | Conditions
    • Nuclear verdicts and rising costs: How inflation is reshaping medical malpractice claims

      Robert E. White, Jr. & The Doctors Company | Policy
    • How new loan caps could destroy diversity in medical education

      Caleb Andrus-Gazyeva | Policy
    • The ethical crossroads of medicine and legislation

      M. Bennet Broner, PhD | Conditions
    • How community and buses saved my retirement

      Raymond Abbott | Conditions
  • Past 6 Months

    • Health equity in Inland Southern California requires urgent action

      Vishruth Nagam | Policy
    • Why transgender health care needs urgent reform and inclusive practices

      Angela Rodriguez, MD | Conditions
    • How restrictive opioid policies worsen the crisis

      Kayvan Haddadan, MD | Physician
    • Why primary care needs better dermatology training

      Alex Siauw | Conditions
    • New student loan caps could shut low-income students out of medicine

      Tom Phan, MD | Physician
    • Why pain doctors face unfair scrutiny and harsh penalties in California

      Kayvan Haddadan, MD | Physician
  • Recent Posts

    • Unused IV catheters cost U.S. hospitals billions

      Piyush Pillarisetti | Policy
    • Why U.S. universities should adopt a standard pre-med major [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • Ancient health secrets for modern life

      Larry Kaskel, MD | Conditions
    • How the internet broke the doctor-parent trust

      Wendy L. Hunter, MD | Conditions
    • Why don’t women in medicine support each other?

      Jessie Mahoney, MD | Physician
    • Why doctors need emotional literacy training

      Vineet Vishwanath | Education

MedPage Today Professional

An Everyday Health Property Medpage Today
  • Terms of Use | Disclaimer
  • Privacy Policy
  • DMCA Policy
All Content © KevinMD, LLC
Site by Outthink Group

Start the difficult conversation with ICD patients
4 comments

Comments are moderated before they are published. Please read the comment policy.

Loading Comments...