Skip to content
  • About
  • Contact
  • Contribute
  • What Physicians Say
  • My Book
  • Careers
  • Podcast
  • Speaking
KevinMD.com — Social media's leading physician voice
  • All
  • Physician
  • Burnout
  • Practice
  • Policy
  • Finance
  • Conditions
  • .edu
  • Patient
  • Meds
  • Tech
  • Social
  • All
  • Physician
  • Burnout
  • Practice
  • Policy
  • Finance
  • Conditions
  • .edu
  • Patient
  • Meds
  • Tech
  • Social
    • All
    • Physician
    • Burnout
    • Practice
    • Policy
    • Finance
    • Conditions
    • .edu
    • Patient
    • Meds
    • Tech
    • Social
    • About
    • Contact
    • Contribute
    • What Physicians Say
    • My Book
    • Careers
    • Podcast
    • Speaking
KevinMD.com — Social media's leading physician voice
  • All
  • Physician
  • Burnout
  • Practice
  • Policy
  • Finance
  • Conditions
  • .edu
  • Patient
  • Meds
  • Tech
  • Social
    • All
    • Physician
    • Burnout
    • Practice
    • Policy
    • Finance
    • Conditions
    • .edu
    • Patient
    • Meds
    • Tech
    • Social
    • About
    • Contact
    • Contribute
    • What Physicians Say
    • My Book
    • Careers
    • Podcast
    • Speaking
  • About Kevin Pho, MD, Founder of KevinMD
  • Aging and dementia: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Artificial intelligence: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Be heard on social media’s leading physician voice
  • Cancer: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Children’s health: what pediatricians say, in their own words
  • Contact Kevin
  • COVID-19: what physicians wrote as it happened
  • Custom enhanced author page pricing
  • Diabetes and obesity: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Direct primary care: what physicians say, in their own words
  • DMCA Policy
  • End of life: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Establishing, Managing, and Protecting Your Online Reputation: A Social Media Guide for Physicians and Medical Practices
  • GLP-1 drugs: what physicians say about Ozempic and its successors, in their own words
  • Heart disease: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Immigration and medicine: what physicians say about immigrant doctors and immigrant patients, in their own words
  • KevinMD influencer opportunities
  • Medical errors: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Medical ethics: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Medical malpractice: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Medical school: what students and physicians say, in their own words
  • Mental health: what psychiatrists and physicians say, in their own words
  • Nursing: what nurses and physicians say, in their own words
  • Opinion and commentary by KevinMD
  • Opioids: what physicians and pain patients say, in their own words
  • Physician burnout speakers to keynote your conference
  • Physician burnout: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Physician Coaching by KevinMD
  • Physician keynote speaker: Kevin Pho, MD
  • Physician personal finance: what physicians say about their own money, in their own words
  • Physician Speaking by KevinMD: a boutique speakers bureau
  • Physician suicide: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Physicians and administrators: what physicians say about who runs medicine, in their own words
  • Primary care physician in Nashua, NH | Kevin Pho, MD
  • Primary care: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Prior authorization: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Privacy Policy
  • Private equity and corporate medicine: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Race and medicine: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Recommended services by KevinMD
  • Residency: what residents and attendings say, in their own words
  • Scope of practice: what physicians, nurse practitioners, and PAs say, in their own words
  • Subscribe to the KevinMD enhanced author page
  • Subscribe to the newsletter
  • Surgeons and surgery: what surgeons say, in their own words
  • Take-home messages: what physicians say when asked to leave one
  • Terms of Use Agreement
  • Thank you for subscribing to KevinMD
  • Thank you for upgrading to the KevinMD enhanced author page
  • The electronic health record: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Vaccines: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Violence against health care workers: what physicians and nurses say, in their own words
  • What physicians say: the KevinMD records
  • Women in medicine: what women physicians say, in their own words
  • Women’s health: what physicians say, in their own words

Do physicians really need such extensive training?

Erin Wildermuth
Medical Education
September 30, 2019
Share
Tweet
Share

Last year the American Association of Nurse Practitioners announced a $2 million campaign to further expand independent practice, which they already have in 22 states. The relatively new doctorate of nursing (DNP) has led to a confusing scenario where nurses are indeed doctors, just not the kind you think of when you see a white coat. The profession (well, its money-making institutions) has fought hard to keep people confused.

Doctors are skeptical, arguing that midlevel clinicians do not have the training or experience necessary to practice independently. A new attending physician has completed over 20,000 hours of clinical experience, while a new DNP needs only 1,000 hours to graduate. (Though until recently most high-level nurses had years of experience before pursuing advanced degrees.)

American doctors spend four years in undergrad, four years in medical school, and at least four years in residency. That is twelve years of schooling beyond high school. These are young people who have given up a huge chunk of their youth to become doctors. They spent their twenties in libraries instead of bars. They sacrificed relationships, family, and sunlight.

Alongside the rise of midlevel clinicians is a more fundamental question about medical education. Do physicians really need to conquer such a tough training regime to become excellent providers?

If midlevels are not providing equal care, they should not be practicing independently. If they are, then the intense training of primary care doctors could be a waste of time and resources.

Most arguments in favor of midlevel competency point to a growing body of studies. Opponents argue that these studies are not robust and thus not reliable. I happen to side with the second camp, but poorly devised studies do not necessarily mean that midlevels are not acting on par with physicians.

The studies are not asking the right questions.

There is little doubt that some seasoned midlevel clinicians provide patient care equivalent to, if not better than, the care provided by physicians. It’s an hours game. Doctor-craft is an exercise in pattern recognition supported by a strong knowledge base. When new residents come on the floor, they are undoubtedly better providers than newly minted nurse practitioners. They have significantly more clinical experience. Compare that same resident to a practitioner who has spent a decade in medicine, and you’re likely to come to different conclusions.

It is experience and knowledge that create an excellent clinician. This doesn’t necessarily correlate to hours spent in the classroom.

What does this mean for physician education?

Last year I had the pleasure of sitting on two curriculum reform committees at my school. One was a student committee, while the other included a healthy mix of students, administrators, and clinicians. As we debated pass-fail, attendance policies, and remediation opportunities, two things became clear.

The first was that everyone at the table was genuinely interested in helping students become excellent physicians. The second? We were operating under a rigid institutional framework, such that even a full curricular overhaul at the medical school level would leave the greater system of medical education entirely intact.

A naïve proposition, completely disregarding the political and special interests that have shaped and continue to shape our health care system, might tackle the medical school debt problem and physician wellness alongside our doctor supply problem.

ADVERTISEMENT

If the level of classroom knowledge necessary to become a physician is adequately represented by board exams, why does a student need to be associated with a medical school to take these exams?

Let students decide for themselves how to master the classroom side of medicine. They can attend medical school, train as a nurse, or tailor their own study scheme. With board scores in hand, let them apply for the experiential education – residency – that truly transforms a student into a physician.

The residency position shortage would still be an issue, but with applicants entering on-site training without overwhelming debt, any number of solutions might be implemented.

Imagine a health care system where young would-be doctors study for the boards during their undergraduate years perhaps even enrolled in a newly formed pre-med curriculum to help them succeed. Upon graduation, they take the boards – Step 1 and 2 – and apply to residency. This is pseudo-med-utopia, so the match is no more.

Hospitals solicit and hire intern-resident-apprentices just as they would in any other market. They choose their own pay scale. Perhaps the more prestigious hospitals don’t pay at all, while rural placements offer a basic living wage. Medicare is not subsidizing these wages, and the number of residencies naturally fluctuates according to need.

More physicians are trained than ever before. Their wages fall, but they don’t care because they have moderate debt and work hours that leave time for family, friends, hobbies.

It is only one version of a system that would work better. There are as many alternatives as there are people to imagine them. Basically, anything that hasn’t been hashed together over years of special interest compromises between rent-seeking organizations would be better than what we have today.

Certainly, all providers would be held to the same standards. This much we should be able to accomplish.

Midlevel providers should be held to the same standards as physicians if they are to practice medicine independently, but midlevels aren’t the problem. Their rise is a natural consequence of our broken physician training pipeline. It doesn’t work for doctors or for their patients. Physician education needs an overhaul that will break down barriers to entry, tackle the physician shortage, and address burnout.

These three things are intractably intertwined, so one simple solution could make a big difference. If only we could convince the institutions of medicine – those that prop up MDs, DOs, NPs, and every other would-be ivory tower provider — that patients are more important than profits.

Erin Wildermuth is a medical student.

Image credit: Shutterstock.com

Prev

A physician's career as an opioid prescriber and addict

September 30, 2019 Kevin 2
…
Next

The breakdown of the rule of law in medicine

September 30, 2019 Kevin 1
…

Tagged as: Medical School, Primary Care

< Previous Post
A physician's career as an opioid prescriber and addict
Next Post >
The breakdown of the rule of law in medicine

 

ADVERTISEMENT

Related Posts

  • How the COVID-19 pandemic highlights the need for social media training in medical education 

    Oscar Chen, Sera Choi, and Clara Seong
  • Why medical students need more continuity of care training

    Nathaniel Fleming
  • Physicians and medical students: Unlearn helplessness

    Jamie Katuna
  • Turn physicians into powerful health care influencers

    Kevin Pho, MD
  • It’s time to focus medical education on training the whole person

    Tracy Asamoah, MD
  • The first day of medical training during a pandemic

    Elizabeth D. Patton

More in Medical Education

  • What clinical support staff notice that charts never show

    Maria Alemu
  • Learning empathy in medical school took my father’s cancer

    Sneha Dabadi
  • Monetize clinical expertise without becoming an influencer

    Justin Allan Montgomery, MSN-FNP
  • Medical infographics now look right without being right

    Shaan R. Mody
  • Clinical uncertainty is missing from medical training

    Lohithasree Bode
  • Why nearly every pre-med now takes a gap year

    Claudia Rodriguez
  • Most Popular

  • Past Week

    • Retirement isn’t the end of medicine, it’s a second act [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • The conflict of interest that discloses as nothing

      Martha Rosenberg | Medications
    • Surgical judgment: the skill no one sees from the gallery

      Mustafa Kemal Çalık, MD | Physician
    • Why haven’t ambient AI scribes boosted productivity?

      Karan Kanwar | Health Technology
    • Physician well-being is not an individual problem

      Heather Buckley | Conditions and Diseases
    • Burnout isn’t only about autonomy, it’s about your bank account [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
  • Past 6 Months

    • Why CDC opioid guidelines get the overdose data wrong

      Richard A. Lawhern, PhD | Conditions and Diseases
    • Retirement isn’t the end of medicine, it’s a second act [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • Sensory processing in autism and the brain’s volume control

      Josette Pelatan, PhD | Conditions and Diseases
    • What maternity care deserts cost a town

      Manisha Kaliaperumal | Health Policy
    • Why medicine needs a national physician license now

      Vaishali Popat, MD, MPH | Physician
    • A cold cost $945. The cost of primary care is broken.

      Susan Newman, MD | Physician
  • Recent Posts

    • Shift work and circadian rhythms shape the 24/7 workplace

      Deepak Gupta, MD | Conditions and Diseases
    • Paid for twice

      Physicians paid for G2211 twice. Most never bill it.

      Michael Duben, MD | Physician Finance
    • The next child

      Medicaid managed care and the case for mutual stewardship

      Steven Merahn, MD | Health Policy
    • Choosing a limb lengthening surgeon requires accountability

      Hrayr Basmajian, MD | Physician
    • Cited but never checked

      Why AI crisis advice may fail families facing psychosis

      Nicole Drapeau Gillen | Health Technology
    • How AI phone systems in health care create barriers

      Thuy D. Bui, MD | Health Technology

Subscribe to KevinMD and never miss a story!

Get free updates delivered free to your inbox.


Find jobs at
Careers by KevinMD.com

Search thousands of physician, PA, NP, and CRNA jobs now.

Learn more

View 6 Comments >

Founded in 2004 by Kevin Pho, MD, KevinMD.com is the web’s leading platform where physicians, advanced practitioners, nurses, medical students, and patients share their insight and tell their stories.

Social

  • Like on Facebook
  • Follow on Twitter
  • Connect on Linkedin
  • Subscribe on Youtube
  • Instagram

ADVERTISEMENT

  • Most Popular

  • Past Week

    • Retirement isn’t the end of medicine, it’s a second act [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • The conflict of interest that discloses as nothing

      Martha Rosenberg | Medications
    • Surgical judgment: the skill no one sees from the gallery

      Mustafa Kemal Çalık, MD | Physician
    • Why haven’t ambient AI scribes boosted productivity?

      Karan Kanwar | Health Technology
    • Physician well-being is not an individual problem

      Heather Buckley | Conditions and Diseases
    • Burnout isn’t only about autonomy, it’s about your bank account [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
  • Past 6 Months

    • Why CDC opioid guidelines get the overdose data wrong

      Richard A. Lawhern, PhD | Conditions and Diseases
    • Retirement isn’t the end of medicine, it’s a second act [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • Sensory processing in autism and the brain’s volume control

      Josette Pelatan, PhD | Conditions and Diseases
    • What maternity care deserts cost a town

      Manisha Kaliaperumal | Health Policy
    • Why medicine needs a national physician license now

      Vaishali Popat, MD, MPH | Physician
    • A cold cost $945. The cost of primary care is broken.

      Susan Newman, MD | Physician
  • Recent Posts

    • Shift work and circadian rhythms shape the 24/7 workplace

      Deepak Gupta, MD | Conditions and Diseases
    • Paid for twice

      Physicians paid for G2211 twice. Most never bill it.

      Michael Duben, MD | Physician Finance
    • The next child

      Medicaid managed care and the case for mutual stewardship

      Steven Merahn, MD | Health Policy
    • Choosing a limb lengthening surgeon requires accountability

      Hrayr Basmajian, MD | Physician
    • Cited but never checked

      Why AI crisis advice may fail families facing psychosis

      Nicole Drapeau Gillen | Health Technology
    • How AI phone systems in health care create barriers

      Thuy D. Bui, MD | Health Technology

Copyright © 2026 KevinMD.com | Powered by Astra WordPress Theme

  • Terms of Use Agreement
  • Privacy Policy
  • DMCA Policy
All Content © KevinMD, LLC
Site by Outthink Group

Do physicians really need such extensive training?
6 comments

Comments are moderated before they are published. Please read the comment policy.

Loading Comments...