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This article is sponsored by Set for Life Insurance, helping over 30,000 physicians with life and disability insurance needs since 1993. Get the best available policies at discounted rates. Request a quote today.
In this special sponsored episode, we have Jamie Fleischner, founder and president of Set for Life Insurance. With over 28 years of industry experience, Jamie is a leading expert in disability and life insurance, helping clients protect themselves from life’s uncertainties.
Disability and life insurance are central to a physician’s financial planning. These insurance policies offer critical protection for not just tangible assets like homes and cars, but importantly, for the ability to generate income—a component often overlooked in insurance planning. Given the significant investment of time, effort, and financial resources that physicians pour into their profession, the stability of their future financial goals heavily depends on their income stream.
One sobering statistic reveals that approximately one in three high-income professionals will encounter a period of disability during their career, where they cannot work due to illness or injury. This statistic illuminates the importance of having suitable disability insurance to safeguard financial well-being during such challenging times.
It’s best for physicians to purchase disability insurance as early as possible, ideally right after graduating from medical school or finishing residency. Buying insurance at a younger age offers several benefits. Premiums are usually lower since they’re based on age and health status, which is typically better in younger individuals. Additionally, securing coverage early allows for locking in a favorable rate, and offers the ability to increase coverage in the future without the need for additional medical evaluations.
While early-career physicians may be overwhelmed with information about disability insurance, understanding the essential elements of a policy is crucial. The definition of disability is paramount as it dictates whether a claim will be honored. The “own occupation” definition is vital; it stipulates that if a physician is unable to work in their medical specialty or occupation due to sickness or injury, they will receive benefits regardless of their ability to work in another field. Individual policies typically provide this “own occupation” coverage.
Group policies, often offered by employers, may have limitations and not provide the same level of protection. For example, these policies might require proof that the insured is unable to work in any occupation, potentially leading to denied claims even if the insured can’t practice their specialty. Group policies might also offer limited benefits, impose taxes on benefits received, and lack portability if the insured switches employers. Therefore, physicians should carefully evaluate their options and consider supplementing their coverage with individual policies for comprehensive protection.
Two real-life incidents emphasize the importance of securing coverage early and understanding potential risks. An orthopedic surgeon delayed buying a policy due to a busy schedule, and was later diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor, making them ineligible for coverage. Had they secured the policy prior to the diagnosis, they would have been protected. Another story involves a man whose life insurance policy lapsed due to non-payment, leaving his family in a precarious financial position after his passing. These stories underscore the importance of acting promptly and regularly reviewing insurance policies.
Life insurance becomes essential when others rely on a physician’s income. Whether one is married, has a partner, children, loans, or a mortgage, life insurance ensures loved ones are financially secure if the primary earner passes away. A common approach is to aim for coverage that can support dependents until they become financially independent or until the policyholder accumulates enough assets to self-fund their financial obligations and goals. It’s generally advised to have life insurance coverage that is about 10 to 12 times the annual income.
Term life insurance is a popular choice. It provides coverage for a specified period—10, 20, or 30 years—with fixed and guaranteed premiums for that term. Compared to permanent life insurance options, term coverage is often more affordable and straightforward.
Individual life insurance policies, such as those offered by Set for Life Insurance, offer more flexibility and customization compared to group policies provided by employers. Group policies can have limitations and may not provide sufficient coverage for individuals with specific needs. Moreover, these policies are often not portable if you change jobs or leave the employer. Therefore, it’s advisable to consider individual life insurance policies to supplement or replace group coverage, thereby ensuring comprehensive and tailored protection.
It’s also critical to understand and avoid common misconceptions surrounding disability and life insurance. One such misconception is over-reliance on employer-provided coverage without considering potential gaps or limitations. Group policies may not offer the same level of protection as individual policies and may leave individuals vulnerable in specific situations. Evaluating individual policies to supplement or replace group coverage is therefore necessary to ensure adequate protection.
Another common mistake is delaying the purchase of insurance, assuming it can be obtained at any time. However, waiting can lead to uninsurability or exclusion of coverage due to health issues or unforeseen circumstances. Securing disability and life insurance coverage early, especially when young and healthy, has the benefits of lower premiums and avoids potential complications in the future.
When selecting insurance policies, it’s essential not to focus solely on the premium cost without considering the comprehensiveness and suitability of the coverage. The goal should be to strike a balance between comprehensive coverage and affordability, based on the individual’s specific needs and circumstances. Working with an experienced and independent insurance broker, such as Set for Life Insurance, can provide guidance through this process and help find the most suitable coverage that aligns with your budget and financial goals.
The process to qualify for disability and life insurance policies typically involves completing an online health questionnaire, assessing the individual’s health history, including any pre-existing conditions. Some policies may require medical examinations, such as blood tests or urine tests, to further evaluate an individual’s health status. It’s important to provide accurate health information during the application process to ensure proper underwriting and eligibility for coverage.
Looking ahead, trends in the insurance industry indicate an increase in online shopping for insurance, with individuals seeking information and quotes online. Even with the rise of technology and AI, the value of human guidance and personalized advice remains crucial. Many individuals still prefer the expertise and support of insurance brokers who can provide tailored recommendations and assist in navigating the complex insurance landscape.
Disability and life insurance are integral parts of a comprehensive financial plan, particularly for physicians and other professionals. By securing disability coverage early, professionals protect their most valuable asset—their ability to earn income. Life insurance ensures that loved ones are financially secure in the event of the insured individual’s death. It’s critical to evaluate individual policies, understand the definitions and terms, and work with experienced insurance brokers who can provide guidance and help find the most suitable coverage for specific needs. As the stories of individuals who faced unfortunate circumstances without adequate insurance coverage illustrate, proactive planning and regular policy reviews are key to ensuring ongoing protection and peace of mind.
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Transcript
Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show, where we share the stories of the many who intersect with our health care system but are rarely heard from. Subscribe at KevinMD.com/podcast. Today we have a special sponsored episode from Set for Life Insurance. Joining us today is Jamie Fleischner. She is founder and president of Set for Life Insurance. With over 28 years of experience in the industry, Jamie has helped countless clients protect themselves from life’s biggest risks. She’s highly recognized as one of the top disability and life insurance brokers in the country, with numerous awards and publications to her name. Find out more at setforlifeinsurance.com. That’s all one word, setforlifeinsurance.com. I’ll put links in the show notes. Jamie, welcome to the show.
Jamie Fleischner: Thanks for having me.
Kevin Pho: So could you tell us a little bit more about your personal experience with disability and life insurance and how it has shaped your career and approach to helping clients?
Jamie Fleischner: Well, I started out in the industry very early on. I was 20 years old and in college, and soon after I graduated, I came back to Denver. Within a few months, my mom needed a double lung transplant, and I was her primary caretaker, so I took care of her. I was starting my business in the insurance industry while taking care of her, and so it had a tremendous impact on me, both personally and professionally.
I saw firsthand the importance of disability insurance. She was a big corporate executive, and she was only 49 years old at the time. It was that disability insurance policy that paid her benefits that allowed her to sustain herself financially while she was trying to get better, or just taking care of her illness, waiting for this transplant. During that period of time, I was starting in the industry and going to all of her medical appointments at the university hospital, and so I met a lot of physicians and medical residents, and I started working with them. That just really launched me into the industry, and I have such a passion for helping physicians with disability insurance.
Kevin Pho: Now, you are the founder and president of Set for Life Insurance. You mentioned that you help primarily physicians. What sets you apart, and why do clients choose to work with your company over others?
Jamie Fleischner: There are several things that set us apart. First of all, we were the very first company to start working with people online. We started setforlifeinsurance.com back in 2000, so we were the first independent brokerage nationally. We’ve really got the systems down, and we were really the pioneers working in that space.
Like you mentioned, we’re independent brokers, so we don’t work for any particular company; we work independently. Our clients come to us, and we shop around and find the best policies available. Since we have so many years of experience and we’ve done so much work in the industry, we’ve developed a lot of relationships around the country, where we’ve developed discounts. We have discounts at every major hospital in the country. We are also working really closely with the companies, where a lot of our clients are able to get exceptions, whether it’s that they can get more benefit or they had a medical problem. We’re able to get some things done for our clients that aren’t done elsewhere.
And then the last thing: A lot of our clients just say our approach is a little bit different than everyone else’s. We’re very approachable, we’re very down-to-earth, and we’re also very responsive. We really, really like to get to know our clients, and it’s a very high-touch type of situation, even though a lot of it is online. It’s not a high-pressure, typical sales experience.
Kevin Pho: Now, you mentioned that you worked with a lot of physicians and medical residents. Do you find that they get a lot of training, information, or education when it comes to disability or life insurance before going out into the workforce?
Jamie Fleischner: I would say they are bombarded with information about disability and life insurance, but they’re getting it from so many different sources that oftentimes they’re not really sure what to believe, or they just block it out. So I think a lot of them turn to the internet or places like your space to get professional information, to know where to go to get the accurate information.
Kevin Pho: All right, so let’s talk about disability insurance. What exactly is that, and why should physicians and other professionals consider it?
Jamie Fleischner: When you think about insurance, what you’re doing is covering risk. People immediately think about covering their car, their home, or things like that, but a lot of people forget that their most valuable asset is their ability to earn an income, because without an income, the whole house of cards falls. You’re not able to even support anything else. So your most valuable asset is not just your income but your ability to earn the income.
Physicians and other high-income professionals are very reliant on their income. They work very hard to get through residency or law school or whatever type of training they’re in to get to that point, and a lot of them have a lot of debt. All of their future financial goals are reliant on the fact that they’re going to have this income stream. Statistically speaking, about one in three high-income professionals at some point in their career are going to have a period of time where they can’t work due to sickness or an injury, or something will happen to them. So it is critical that they have proper insurance, where they can still sustain themselves financially, whether it’s paying off their loans, their mortgage, saving for retirement, or supporting their family.
Kevin Pho: When is the best time for someone to purchase a disability policy, and why?
Jamie Fleischner: The earlier the better. The best time for physicians is coming out of medical school or medical residency, or if you’re a young professional, right as you come out of law school or you graduate. As soon as you are ready and you’re working, that’s the best time. The younger you are, the less expensive it is, because it’s based on your age, and also, typically, you’re healthier when you’re younger.
Disability insurance can be the most difficult type of insurance to get because there’s so much exposure, there’s so much risk, and it’s likely to happen, so they look at all of your medical conditions. If you can get it when you’re younger, it’ll be less expensive, and then you can also lock in that rate and have the ability to increase in the future without having to answer any medical questions. So earlier is better.
Kevin Pho: Now, you mentioned earlier that a lot of early-career physicians and residents are bombarded with information about disability insurance. So when someone looks at that information or looks at a policy, what are the most important elements that someone should look for when evaluating a disability policy?
Jamie Fleischner: Well, the most important part of the policy is the definition of disability, because that’s how the company is going to determine whether or not they’re going to pay a claim. If you don’t have a good definition of disability, it doesn’t really matter what else is on the policy. So the most important part is having an own-occupation definition of disability. What that says is, if due to sickness or injury you can’t work in your medical specialty or your occupation, you’re going to get paid benefits regardless of income earned in another medical specialty or occupation. That is the most primary thing.
Kevin Pho: Now, would you say that a lot of the policies that are offered to physicians are own occupation?
Jamie Fleischner: Individual policies are typically own occupation. There are five major companies that are all true own occupation, and there’s really not much variance between them. But group policies, so policies that people get through their employer, typically are not own occupation. With most group policies, if you go and work for the university hospital, their definition is going to say, “We’ll cover you if you can’t work, as long as you’re not gainfully employed.”
So if you’re a neurosurgeon and you have arthritis and you can’t do neurosurgery, but maybe you can go do research, on an own-occupation policy you’re going to get paid. Through the employer, you’re not going to get paid; if they think you can go do research or something else, they may not pay that claim.
Kevin Pho: So those typical hospital benefits, where you typically check a box during, you know, the benefits fair, the disability policy offered, in general, just to be clear, those are not good enough for most physicians?
Jamie Fleischner: Well, there are limitations on it. Again, if you’re unhealthy, that’s the only thing you can do. Number two, it’s usually required that you do take that policy, so typically you don’t have a choice. But there are large gaps in it. Since the employer is paying the premium, the benefits to you are taxable. They usually have a cap, so they usually only pay up to maybe $10,000 or $15,000 a month, and again, that’s taxable. And then it’s also not portable, so if you ever leave that employer, you’re not going to be able to take it with you. If you go to a new employer where they don’t have it, or you go start your own practice, you’re having to start all over and get your own insurance.
So it’s really important, even if you have a group policy, to at least supplement with your own insurance, so if you leave, you can expand your own policy, or if you have an own-occupation claim, you’re still going to get paid benefits even though the group may not pay you.
Kevin Pho: So in your opinion, what are some of the biggest risks that physicians and other health care professionals face in their careers that disability and life insurance can help protect against?
Jamie Fleischner: When you’re looking at risk, the biggest causes of disability are primarily musculoskeletal problems and mental health problems. Those are really the two primary reasons that people aren’t able to work. So back injuries, back pain, neck pain, depression, and anxiety are the biggest risks that are keeping people out of work.
Kevin Pho: Now, are there cases where someone should consider changing the policies that they currently have?
Jamie Fleischner: Well, some people come to me, and maybe they got a policy 10 years ago. It’s still a good policy; if you bought it 10 years ago, you probably locked it in at your age, so it’s going to be a lot less expensive. But there are some policies out there that may not be own occupation, or they might have some gaps in them. It might be worth evaluating, to maybe supplement what you have. I typically don’t like to replace it unless it’s really worthwhile for the client.
Kevin Pho: Are there any horror stories that you’ve heard from physicians when it comes to their disability policy? Perhaps they didn’t choose an own-occupation policy and just stuck to the default policy. What are some horror stories that you’ve heard and want to share with us today?
Jamie Fleischner: Well, I love horror stories related to disability insurance. I once gave a seminar to some orthopedic surgeons down at the university hospital, and this guy came up to me and said, “I’m really busy right now. I don’t have time.” He contacted me three weeks later and said, “I was just diagnosed with a brain tumor, a malignant brain tumor. Is this going to be a problem?” Yeah, you can’t get it; you can’t buy it now. Those are the types of things that are painful. Had he bought the policy prior, he would have been covered.
I’ve had people with life insurance, too. I had a guy out in Alaska who didn’t pay his life insurance premium, didn’t tell his wife, and died scuba diving. She contacted me, and his policy had lapsed, and they had two young children. So I’ve had some of those types of horror stories, where people didn’t pay attention or do what they needed to do.
Kevin Pho: So let’s switch gears to life insurance. When should someone consider purchasing life insurance?
Jamie Fleischner: Disability insurance is important if you are relying on your income, but life insurance becomes important if somebody else would be at risk if something happened to you. So whether you’re married, you have a partner, you have children, you have a loan, or you have a mortgage, that’s when it’s important to make sure you have life insurance.
Kevin Pho: So like you said, we get bombarded with information about million-dollar policies, three-million-dollar policies. How do you determine the amount of life insurance you should apply for and the type of coverage that is available? Walk us through that.
Jamie Fleischner: With life insurance, I try to keep it relatively simple. You want to have enough life insurance until you’re able to self-fund, meaning you pay down your debt and you’ve accumulated enough assets that you’re able to take care of everything if something happens to you. The rule of thumb is you need about 10 to 12 times your income to be able to cover that, and you need it until your youngest dependent is about age 25 and out of the house, or until you’ve been able to self-fund.
So somebody who’s coming out of residency, let’s say they’re making $250,000 a year, they just got married, and they had their first child. Somebody like that would probably need about $2.5 million of term life insurance, and I would probably say a 30-year term, to cover future children.
With life insurance, though, it’s always better to overestimate how much you think you need and do it a little bit longer, because you can’t increase a life insurance policy and you can’t extend it, but you can trim. So let’s say that same person got $3 million, and they got a 30-year term, and maybe they pay off everything, and they only had the one kid. In 25 years, they say, “I don’t need this anymore.” You can always cancel it.
Kevin Pho: So you mentioned the word “term life insurance.” Walk us through the different options that physicians typically have when it comes to life insurance policies and how long the premiums are locked in for.
Jamie Fleischner: They’re usually a 10-, 15-, 20-, 25-, or 30-year term. The rates are fixed and guaranteed for that period of time, and at the end of the term, the policy will expire. That’s why it’s important to make sure you choose the accurate time frame that you need, and then you also want to make sure it’s something that’s affordable.
Kevin Pho: And a 30-year term, would that be the recommended length for somebody who’s just getting started, maybe they haven’t even had kids yet?
Jamie Fleischner: Yeah, they’re just kind of starting out. Again, 30 years is typically where people start. Now, if somebody comes and they’ve already got a 10- and a 12-year-old, and they’ve already paid off a lot of their debt, maybe a 20-year term might be sufficient for them, or 25. So it really kind of depends on their situation.
Kevin Pho: So again, similar to disability insurance, contrast the individual life insurance policy that you would get from, say, Set for Life versus a typical group policy that someone would get from a hospital. Contrast the coverage there.
Jamie Fleischner: Again, when you’re signing up for your benefits, you can usually just check the box, and it’s usually one or two times your income, or up to $500,000, typically. So again, if you’re really unhealthy and you want to get more, you can get some through your group. It’s actually usually less expensive to go out into the marketplace and get your own term insurance than to get it through your employer. Unlike disability insurance, term life through your employer is not taxable. But again, it’s going to be limited, and if you ever leave your job, it doesn’t go with you. So you’re really better off getting your own insurance, and I consider the life insurance through your employer as a bonus.
Kevin Pho: What are some common misconceptions about disability and life insurance that you’ve often had to address and answer from clients?
Jamie Fleischner: The misconception is, “I could just get this through my employer. My employer is going to take care of everything. We’ve got a great benefits package. I trust them; that’s going to cover everything. I’m going to be staying at this same hospital my entire career. I’m covered.” That’s probably the biggest misconception. Or, “I’ll just get this later. I can’t afford it right now. I’ve got a lot of bills. I’ll wait to buy it.” And then either they’re uninsurable or they have a claim. So the biggest misconceptions are that you’ll be able to buy it when you need it, or right before you need it, or that your employer is going to take care of everything.
Kevin Pho: Any pitfalls or red flags that early-career physicians should look out for when evaluating life and disability insurance policies?
Jamie Fleischner: If you’re working with somebody and they tell you that this policy is better than all the rest, that this is the only one that you should go through, that’s the importance of working with somebody who’s independent, who can shop around and look at it, because there really isn’t one that’s head and shoulders above all the others. So especially if they’re saying this is the best and it’s significantly more expensive, that’s one of the biggest red flags. I always like to spreadsheet and shop things around, so that’s something to look out for.
Kevin Pho: We’re talking to Jamie Fleischner. She is founder and president of Set for Life Insurance. With over 28 years of experience in the industry, Jamie has helped countless clients protect themselves from life’s biggest risks. She’s highly recognized as one of the top disability and life insurance brokers in the country, with numerous awards and publications to her name. Find out more at setforlifeinsurance.com. That’s all one word, setforlifeinsurance.com, and I’ll put links in the show notes.
Jamie, how do you work with clients to create a customized insurance plan that meets their specific needs and circumstances?
Jamie Fleischner: They come to our website and request a quote, and we ask a lot of questions in terms of what their current situation is and what their priorities are. Based on that information, again, we spreadsheet everything out and we analyze everything, so what we might recommend for one person might be completely different than for their colleague or somebody in a totally different situation. What we try to do is find the best price and make sure there’s the biggest amount of discount, and then we eliminate a lot of the superfluous types of riders and just really focus on what they really need to have that’s going to be the most comprehensive at the best available price, that’s going to be suitable to their needs.
Kevin Pho: Now, how is your clients’ health evaluated in order to qualify for these policies?
Jamie Fleischner: When you apply for a disability or a life insurance policy, you submit an application, and they usually do an online health questionnaire, where they’ll ask you, head to toe, about the last 10 years of health issues. Based on that criteria, the company will come back and let you know whether you’ve qualified or not. For disability, it either says, “Yes, you qualify,” “No, you don’t,” or “We’re excluding your left knee,” something specific. Life insurance will categorize you and say you’re super healthy, kind of healthy, or not so healthy.
So when somebody comes to us, based on our experience, we can typically let them know whether or not we think that they’re going to be able to qualify, or if something’s going to be excluded. Sometimes we really don’t know until the company has to go and retrieve medical records and evaluate.
Kevin Pho: And in terms of things like testing, blood tests, for instance?
Jamie Fleischner: For disability insurance, if you apply through our agency for less than a $10,000-a-month benefit, there’s no blood or urine necessary. For life insurance, for any amount of a million or above, we have examiners that’ll come out and test blood and urine, and they’re checking for AIDS, drugs, nicotine, and cholesterol. Those are the big ones.
Kevin Pho: Now, similar to my red-flag question, what are some of the most common mistakes that people make when selecting disability or life insurance coverage?
Jamie Fleischner: The most common mistake with disability is probably only looking at the premium, as opposed to making sure it’s comprehensive and appropriate for their needs. The other mistake is not shopping it around and making sure that there are available discounts, or that it’s going to be the most suitable for them.
For life insurance, it’s pretty straightforward. I tell people you don’t need name-brand term life insurance; you just want to go with the one that’s going to be the most cost-effective. However, sometimes, based on our experience, if somebody’s a little more complicated with health issues, we might be aware of which companies might provide a better offer for them. But the biggest mistake is going with somebody who only shows them one thing and tells them that it’s the best, when it may not be the most suitable or the best priced for them.
Kevin Pho: Now, how do you balance a need for comprehensive coverage with a client’s budget and financial goals?
Jamie Fleischner: What I do is I ask them what their priorities are, and then we also just try to take it in stages, because some people are thinking five or 10 years down the road, when they have six kids and a $2 million mansion. Think about where you are in the next three to five years, and take it in steps. You’re better off growing into your coverage and having something that you can afford than something that you really can’t afford. So you really need to also kind of prioritize. You may not be able to get everything that you want right now, but you can also grow with your policy.
Kevin Pho: Now, can you share a success story about a client who was able to benefit from your guidance and Set for Life’s insurance policies?
Jamie Fleischner: I’ve had several over the years, all different kinds of claims. One that comes to mind is a client of mine who was an orthopedic surgeon. I met with her right when she was coming out of residency and kept up with her over the years. She called me, and she was really, really struggling. She had rheumatoid arthritis, and it was progressively getting worse and worse, and one day she went to tie her shoes and she couldn’t get up, and she was done. She couldn’t work anymore, which was really devastating for her, because that was something really important to her.
So we filed the claim. She actually had policies with two companies; she had pretty significant-size policies. She’s only 45 years old, and she’s finished for the rest of her career, but she’s going to be OK financially. She’s going to be able to keep her house, and her family is intact. She reaches out to me regularly and sends me thank-you notes. She’s so appreciative that she listened so early on and not only got the coverage when she was in residency, but we kept it up to speed as her income changed. And so she’s in really good shape if she decides that she wants to do some kind of research. I think she’s doing some charity work right now, but she’s going to be OK financially. So it’s really satisfying.
Kevin Pho: Looking to the future, what trends do you see emerging in the insurance industry, and how do you anticipate adapting to meet those changes?
Jamie Fleischner: In the future, I mean, I’m seeing more and more clients shopping online. I think that’s not going to change. I think AI might become a part of it, people asking questions about that online. I still foresee that the need to have guidance and actual human contact is still really important. There’s a really interesting article and research study done recently in the Wall Street Journal about how the industry was trying to replace agents by doing everything directly, and it didn’t go well. So I think there’s still going to be a need in the future. I do see maybe some more consolidation between companies, but in terms of the policies, I don’t foresee anything really all that significantly changing.
Kevin Pho: You’re listening to a special sponsored episode of The Podcast by KevinMD. We’re talking with Jamie Fleischner. She is founder and president of Set for Life Insurance. Find out more at setforlifeinsurance.com. That’s all one word, setforlifeinsurance.com. I’ll put links in the show notes. Jamie, my final question. Tell us some of your take-home messages that you want to leave with the KevinMD audience.
Jamie Fleischner: My take-home message is, if you’re thinking about life insurance or disability insurance, or you’re concerned about it, or you’re just overwhelmed with information, just contact us. If you want us to take a look at what you’ve already done, or you want us to help guide you through the process, we’re here to help you. There’s a lot of information out there, and it’s really important that you find somebody that you can trust. It is a big decision. It is a policy that you’re going to have for 30 or 40 years, so it’s really important that you make sure that you think about what you’re doing.
It’s important that you protect your income. It’s your livelihood, and if something does happen, all of your future financial decisions are reliant on that income. So it’s really, really important to make sure that it’s properly protected.
Kevin Pho: For those who want to reach Jamie, go to setforlifeinsurance.com. That’s setforlifeinsurance.com. I’ll put links in the show notes. Jamie, thank you so much for sharing your time and insight, and thanks again for being on the show.
Jamie Fleischner: Thank you.
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