Skip to content
  • About
  • Contact
  • Contribute
  • What Physicians Say
  • My Book
  • Careers
  • Podcast
  • Speaking
KevinMD.com — Social media's leading physician voice
  • All
  • Physician
  • Burnout
  • Practice
  • Policy
  • Finance
  • Conditions
  • .edu
  • Patient
  • Meds
  • Tech
  • Social
  • All
  • Physician
  • Burnout
  • Practice
  • Policy
  • Finance
  • Conditions
  • .edu
  • Patient
  • Meds
  • Tech
  • Social
    • All
    • Physician
    • Burnout
    • Practice
    • Policy
    • Finance
    • Conditions
    • .edu
    • Patient
    • Meds
    • Tech
    • Social
    • About
    • Contact
    • Contribute
    • What Physicians Say
    • My Book
    • Careers
    • Podcast
    • Speaking
KevinMD.com — Social media's leading physician voice
  • All
  • Physician
  • Burnout
  • Practice
  • Policy
  • Finance
  • Conditions
  • .edu
  • Patient
  • Meds
  • Tech
  • Social
    • All
    • Physician
    • Burnout
    • Practice
    • Policy
    • Finance
    • Conditions
    • .edu
    • Patient
    • Meds
    • Tech
    • Social
    • About
    • Contact
    • Contribute
    • What Physicians Say
    • My Book
    • Careers
    • Podcast
    • Speaking
  • About Kevin Pho, MD, Founder of KevinMD
  • Aging and dementia: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Artificial intelligence: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Be heard on social media’s leading physician voice
  • Cancer: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Children’s health: what pediatricians say, in their own words
  • Contact Kevin
  • COVID-19: what physicians wrote as it happened
  • Custom enhanced author page pricing
  • Diabetes and obesity: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Direct primary care: what physicians say, in their own words
  • DMCA Policy
  • End of life: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Establishing, Managing, and Protecting Your Online Reputation: A Social Media Guide for Physicians and Medical Practices
  • GLP-1 drugs: what physicians say about Ozempic and its successors, in their own words
  • Heart disease: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Immigration and medicine: what physicians say about immigrant doctors and immigrant patients, in their own words
  • KevinMD influencer opportunities
  • Medical errors: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Medical ethics: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Medical malpractice: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Medical school: what students and physicians say, in their own words
  • Mental health: what psychiatrists and physicians say, in their own words
  • Nursing: what nurses and physicians say, in their own words
  • Opinion and commentary by KevinMD
  • Opioids: what physicians and pain patients say, in their own words
  • Physician burnout speakers to keynote your conference
  • Physician burnout: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Physician Coaching by KevinMD
  • Physician keynote speaker: Kevin Pho, MD
  • Physician personal finance: what physicians say about their own money, in their own words
  • Physician Speaking by KevinMD: a boutique speakers bureau
  • Physician suicide: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Physicians and administrators: what physicians say about who runs medicine, in their own words
  • Primary care physician in Nashua, NH | Kevin Pho, MD
  • Primary care: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Prior authorization: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Privacy Policy
  • Private equity and corporate medicine: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Race and medicine: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Recommended services by KevinMD
  • Residency: what residents and attendings say, in their own words
  • Scope of practice: what physicians, nurse practitioners, and PAs say, in their own words
  • Subscribe to the KevinMD enhanced author page
  • Subscribe to the newsletter
  • Surgeons and surgery: what surgeons say, in their own words
  • Take-home messages: what physicians say when asked to leave one
  • Terms of Use Agreement
  • Thank you for subscribing to KevinMD
  • Thank you for upgrading to the KevinMD enhanced author page
  • The electronic health record: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Vaccines: what physicians say, in their own words
  • Violence against health care workers: what physicians and nurses say, in their own words
  • What physicians say: the KevinMD records
  • Women in medicine: what women physicians say, in their own words
  • Women’s health: what physicians say, in their own words

Advice for a second year medical student

Skeptical Scalpel, MD
Medical Education
October 16, 2010
Share
Tweet
Share

A rising second year medical student read some of my posts and wrote me a kind note asking if I would write something for students. I taught students and ran surgical clerkships at community teaching hospitals for my entire career until about 19 months ago.

I also was prompted to address this subject after reading a recent New York Times story about a new admissions policy at Mt. Sinai Medical School.

The school is accepting some students who are majoring in the humanities and are not required to take the usual science courses or the MCAT. In the words of one of the participants in the program: “I didn’t want to waste a class on physics, or waste a class on orgo [organic chemistry]. The social determinants of health are so much more pervasive than the immediate biology of it.” I agree that possibly “orgo” and probably physics are not necessarily essential for medical school applicants. But I think these courses are still relevant because they assess one’s ability to think.

According to the article, these humanities students are faring as well as traditional students as far as grades and class rankings are concerned. Is this because science doesn’t really matter or could there be another reason?

Grades in medical schools are a joke. Let’s talk about the third year. If you look at the explanation of grades that comes with a student’s medical school transcript, you will find that the average distribution of grades in third-year clerkships in all subjects is something like this: honors 30%; pass 68%; low pass 2%. It is almost impossible to flunk out of any medical school in the United States. I once received an application for residency from a student who had been matriculating at a single medical school for TEN YEARS! I assure you that dean’s letter was a masterpiece. [More on deans’ letters below] And the fourth year of medical school is even worse. With few exceptions, most schools allow students to choose electives which may be taken just about anywhere on the planet. There are no objective measures of performance on electives and students are even more likely to receive honors grades in electives than in required courses.

“‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.’” [Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass. See also Bill Clinton “It depends on what the meaning of the words ‘is’ is.” And “It depends on how you define alone…”]

Carroll’s quotation is not only applicable to Humpty Dumpty but it also describes most deans’ letters supporting student applications to residency training programs. Obfuscation is the name of the game. Until just a few years ago, deans did not even have to mention such things as failing a course, dropping out of school for a year or disciplinary actions. The letters all continue to read like public relations releases. The best part is the end where the dean uses an adjective, which in many instances is a code that tells the reader what the student’s class rank is, to describe the student. Some of my favorites from real dean’s letters are as follows [highest to lowest and, where indicated, % of the class receiving that adjective]:

School A—outstanding, excellent, superior, very good, good;
School B— superior 20%, outstanding 20%, excellent 30%, very good 20%, good 7%, solid 3% [I guess “solid” could mean the student is dense as a rock.];
School C—superior “a few,” outstanding 25%, excellent 65%, very good 20%. I know it doesn’t add up to 100% so talk to the dean. Also, the worst student in the class was very good.

Yes, medical school resembles that famous fictional town in the Midwest. “Welcome to Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average.” [Garrison Keillor]

As far as I know, most medical schools are teaching surgery just like they did 40 years ago. What is Hesselbach’s triangle? What is Charcot’s triad? Second assist on a bunch of cases. Get the lab results from the computer so they can be re-entered in the computer in a progress note. And so on. Now that an entire surgical textbook can be carried in your cell phone, why don’t we change the paradigm? Rather than forcing you to memorize information, we should be teaching you how analyze and synthesize it as it relates to your patient.

The third-year surgery rotation in medical school is not a necessarily a good simulation of what it’s like to be a surgical resident. I can’t say what goes on in every school, but the last school I was affiliated with allowed students to take off the day after call. I never could figure out why since we only woke them for major cases at night and they usually slept most of the time. All I could say was, “It’s your tuition [$45K/year] and if you want to go home, it’s OK with me.” By the way, we at the affiliated hospitals never saw a penny of that tuition money. I’m not sure exactly where it was spent. I think that the way students are coddled on surgery rotations might be a factor resulting in the high attrition rate [about 25%] of surgery residents; i.e., it looks easy from the perspective of a student who does not do much.

Fourth year is out of control. In addition to the grade problem mentioned above, students are permitted to choose just about any rotation they want in the fourth year. This leads to tragic situations such as the student who takes four or five orthopedic electives in order to get noticed and then does not secure an orthopedic residency in the match. He will have wasted a good part of his fourth year.

One of the many unintended consequences of the electronic medical record [EMR] is the demise of medical student progress notes and orders. There is no provision for such activities in most EMRs. I have no idea how students are learning how to do these things.

ADVERTISEMENT

My advice to my new friend, the rising second-year student, is that you should work hard and study hard during your surgery rotation in the third year. Be inquisitive. Be skeptical. Ask why. In my 38 years or so of teaching students, I estimate that I was challenged by a student on something I said fewer than five times. [Disclaimer #1: Not all authority figures like to be challenged. Choose your targets wisely. Be respectful.]

If you want to be a general surgeon, take one surgery elective in the fourth year just to be sure you are making the right choice. Then take electives in gastroenterology, critical care, radiology [Not just because of the hours. You will need to know how to read a CT scan in the middle of the night unless you want to wait a couple of hours for the nighthawk to fax a reading.], anesthesiology and other non-surgical rotations. [Disclaimer #2: This is my opinion and it may not be shared by others.]

Skeptical Scalpel is a surgeon blogs at his self-titled site, Skeptical Scalpel.

Submit a guest post and be heard.

Prev

How a tyranny of health is bad for both patients and physicians

October 16, 2010 Kevin 21
…
Next

10 top medical blog posts, September 2010

October 17, 2010 Kevin 0
…

Tagged as: Medical School, Surgery

< Previous Post
How a tyranny of health is bad for both patients and physicians
Next Post >
10 top medical blog posts, September 2010

 

ADVERTISEMENT

More by Skeptical Scalpel, MD

  • The hospital CEO who made a surgical incision. What happened?

    Skeptical Scalpel, MD
  • Medical error is not the third leading cause of death

    Skeptical Scalpel, MD
  • Should speed-eating contests be banned?

    Skeptical Scalpel, MD

More in Medical Education

  • What clinical support staff notice that charts never show

    Maria Alemu
  • Learning empathy in medical school took my father’s cancer

    Sneha Dabadi
  • Monetize clinical expertise without becoming an influencer

    Justin Allan Montgomery, MSN-FNP
  • Medical infographics now look right without being right

    Shaan R. Mody
  • Clinical uncertainty is missing from medical training

    Lohithasree Bode
  • Why nearly every pre-med now takes a gap year

    Claudia Rodriguez
  • Most Popular

  • Past Week

    • Retirement isn’t the end of medicine, it’s a second act [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • Surgical judgment: the skill no one sees from the gallery

      Mustafa Kemal Çalık, MD | Physician
    • Why haven’t ambient AI scribes boosted productivity?

      Karan Kanwar | Health Technology
    • The next child

      Medicaid managed care and the case for mutual stewardship

      Steven Merahn, MD | Health Policy
    • Hospital IT approval has no path for clinician-built tools

      Sanjay Khicha, MD and Gautam Nayak, MD | Health Technology
    • Physician well-being is not an individual problem

      Heather Buckley | Conditions and Diseases
  • Past 6 Months

    • Why CDC opioid guidelines get the overdose data wrong

      Richard A. Lawhern, PhD | Conditions and Diseases
    • Retirement isn’t the end of medicine, it’s a second act [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • Sensory processing in autism and the brain’s volume control

      Josette Pelatan, PhD | Conditions and Diseases
    • What maternity care deserts cost a town

      Manisha Kaliaperumal | Health Policy
    • Why medicine needs a national physician license now

      Vaishali Popat, MD, MPH | Physician
    • A cold cost $945. The cost of primary care is broken.

      Susan Newman, MD | Physician
  • Recent Posts

    • The next child

      Medicaid managed care and the case for mutual stewardship

      Steven Merahn, MD | Health Policy
    • Choosing a limb lengthening surgeon requires accountability

      Hrayr Basmajian, MD | Physician
    • Cited but never checked

      Why AI crisis advice may fail families facing psychosis

      Nicole Drapeau Gillen | Health Technology
    • How AI phone systems in health care create barriers

      Thuy D. Bui, MD | Health Technology
    • The conflict of interest that discloses as nothing

      Martha Rosenberg | Medications
    • AI data centers and public health demand regulation

      Jacob Player, MD, MPH | Health Technology

Subscribe to KevinMD and never miss a story!

Get free updates delivered free to your inbox.


Find jobs at
Careers by KevinMD.com

Search thousands of physician, PA, NP, and CRNA jobs now.

Learn more

View 17 Comments >

Founded in 2004 by Kevin Pho, MD, KevinMD.com is the web’s leading platform where physicians, advanced practitioners, nurses, medical students, and patients share their insight and tell their stories.

Social

  • Like on Facebook
  • Follow on Twitter
  • Connect on Linkedin
  • Subscribe on Youtube
  • Instagram

ADVERTISEMENT

  • Most Popular

  • Past Week

    • Retirement isn’t the end of medicine, it’s a second act [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • Surgical judgment: the skill no one sees from the gallery

      Mustafa Kemal Çalık, MD | Physician
    • Why haven’t ambient AI scribes boosted productivity?

      Karan Kanwar | Health Technology
    • The next child

      Medicaid managed care and the case for mutual stewardship

      Steven Merahn, MD | Health Policy
    • Hospital IT approval has no path for clinician-built tools

      Sanjay Khicha, MD and Gautam Nayak, MD | Health Technology
    • Physician well-being is not an individual problem

      Heather Buckley | Conditions and Diseases
  • Past 6 Months

    • Why CDC opioid guidelines get the overdose data wrong

      Richard A. Lawhern, PhD | Conditions and Diseases
    • Retirement isn’t the end of medicine, it’s a second act [PODCAST]

      The Podcast by KevinMD | Podcast
    • Sensory processing in autism and the brain’s volume control

      Josette Pelatan, PhD | Conditions and Diseases
    • What maternity care deserts cost a town

      Manisha Kaliaperumal | Health Policy
    • Why medicine needs a national physician license now

      Vaishali Popat, MD, MPH | Physician
    • A cold cost $945. The cost of primary care is broken.

      Susan Newman, MD | Physician
  • Recent Posts

    • The next child

      Medicaid managed care and the case for mutual stewardship

      Steven Merahn, MD | Health Policy
    • Choosing a limb lengthening surgeon requires accountability

      Hrayr Basmajian, MD | Physician
    • Cited but never checked

      Why AI crisis advice may fail families facing psychosis

      Nicole Drapeau Gillen | Health Technology
    • How AI phone systems in health care create barriers

      Thuy D. Bui, MD | Health Technology
    • The conflict of interest that discloses as nothing

      Martha Rosenberg | Medications
    • AI data centers and public health demand regulation

      Jacob Player, MD, MPH | Health Technology

Copyright © 2026 KevinMD.com | Powered by Astra WordPress Theme

  • Terms of Use Agreement
  • Privacy Policy
  • DMCA Policy
All Content © KevinMD, LLC
Site by Outthink Group

Advice for a second year medical student
17 comments

Comments are moderated before they are published. Please read the comment policy.

Loading Comments...