To MBA or not to MBA as an MD [PODCAST]

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“The first thing my husband said when I told him about MBA school was, ‘the NBA has a school?’  It didn’t help that we first had our conversation about MBA school during the NBA playoffs but really – NBA school?  I quickly overcame this moronic start to the conversation by saying ‘M’ as in Michael Jordan – MBA school.  He got it from there and every day since. And every day since has led me to this point of reflecting over the past two years.  How did I get an MBA?  Why did I get an MBA?  Was it worth it?

Rewinding the clock to April 2018 brings back many fond memories and some memories I would sooner like to forget.  I was 37 years old with a 1-year-old baby and a few months into my full-time job as a transplant nephrologist at a thriving transplant department.  The job demands were significant, but the rewards matched the demand.  I learned exponentially about transplant nephrology, which I find incredibly gratifying today; however, the learning curve, demand, and stress had me concerned about my long term ability to do this job while maintaining a healthy physical and mental disposition.  Out of all of this uncertainty came one certainty: I wanted to possess the ability to pivot to a new job if necessary.”

Manpreet Samra is a nephrologist.

She shares her story and discusses her KevinMD article, “To MBA or not to MBA as an MD: a physician’s journey.”

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Hosted by Kevin Pho, MD, The Podcast by KevinMD shares the stories of the many who intersect with our health care system but are rarely heard from.

Transcript

Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show, where we share the stories of the many who intersect with our health care system but are rarely heard from. My name is Kevin Pho, founder and editor of KevinMD. Today on the show, we have Manpreet Samra. She is a nephrologist, and she wrote the KevinMD article “To MBA or not to MBA as an MD: a physician’s journey.” Manpreet, welcome to the show.

Manpreet Samra: Thank you, Kevin, for having me.

Kevin Pho: We’ll get into your article in a little bit, but first off, can you share your story and your journey to where you are today?

Manpreet Samra: Absolutely. Currently, I’m based in Chicago, Illinois. I’m a practicing transplant nephrologist. I’d say my journey towards medical school probably started at the age of five, when my immigrant Asian Indian parents told me that that was the best line of meditative career to go into: engineering, medicine, or law. But I was actually 13 years old when I moved to India from California, and I went to a boarding school there. My paternal grandfather wanted my siblings and me to learn the Indian culture, and so I actually went to high school there, and I went to medical school there as well, which started at the age of 17.

And so I came back to the U.S. and did my training. I did my residency in internal medicine and chief here, and then I did my nephrology training in California. Then I practiced as a general nephrologist for about three years and realized that I had always wanted to do transplants, so I actually came to the University of Chicago and did a transplant training. In between, I also did a functional medicine training, to try and marry functional medicine and nephrology. Then I practiced as a transplant nephrologist right out of fellowship.

And then I realized that I wasn’t in the most ideal work environment and that I needed an exit plan, and that’s kind of how I’ve been thinking about doing an MBA for a very long time. My father is in business. He’s a self-proclaimed successful entrepreneur, and I knew business kind of always ran in my blood. That’s number one. Number two, I just feel like all of us, through the dozen-plus years of training we go through, barely get any real business of medicine discussion or lecture, minus the insurance agents that maybe come and do a grand rounds or so.

And so, while I was at this university, they actually offered an MBA as one of the perks for faculty, and I found it a no-brainer. I thought, “Let me jump into this now. I’ve always wanted to do an MBA. I’ve always wanted to learn more about the finance and business side of things.” And so I started a part-time MBA course. I would take my classes in the evening, or I would take online classes, and there I was basically learning economics, finance, accounting, and a lot of leadership and management, which is actually something I did not expect to come from the MBA. And there were some very specific health care courses and health care strategy courses. So it was a lot. It was a very large time commitment, but it was not difficult, and it was a breeze compared to medical school.

Kevin Pho: So you said that you wanted to be a doctor since you were five, and now that you have all that training, you’re a nephrologist. Is medicine what you thought it would be?

Manpreet Samra: Not at all, not at all. The nobility of it is what was sold to me, the idea of it, the stability of career that it provides. But over the last one year, I mean, COVID has proven to us that perhaps medicine is not as stable of a career as we thought after all, with so many friends and colleagues being laid off, and even not having job security myself, not knowing what would happen. So it’s absolutely not what I thought it would be. That being said, I enjoy the practice of medicine. I love seeing my patients. I could never see myself not practicing medicine, but it’s definitely not what I thought it would be.

Kevin Pho: And you had mentioned the thought of an exit plan. So tell me a little bit more about what you mean by that.

Manpreet Samra: Yes, absolutely. At my previous job, it was not an ideal job. It was not what I wanted, and I knew that about three to six months into the job. And I didn’t want to be stuck. I had talked to many friends who had been stuck in their jobs in the past, and I didn’t want that to happen. And so I had started thinking, “Well, what can I do to make myself more sellable, if you will, in such a tight market like Chicago?” And that was another reason for me to start the MBA. I figured the MBA would open up so many opportunities for me, and I could then start looking for another job, another career, because I still did want to stay in the Chicago area. And so that was the exit plan.

Kevin Pho: All right, so let’s talk about that article that you wrote, “To MBA or not to MBA as an MD: a physician’s journey.” Now, for those who didn’t read that article, can you just walk my audience through it and share the story of why you decided to write it?

Manpreet Samra: Yes, absolutely. I feel like as physicians, we’re all really lifelong learners. We love learning, and personally, I consider myself a self-proclaimed nerd. You can teach me about anything; I just love it. And the second thing is, I wish someone had written this for me before I embarked upon the MBA, because there were a lot of surprises that came along the way. One was that I underestimated how much time it would take, what a time commitment it would be, even though I was doing a part-time MBA and I completed it in 22 months. And also the time away from my family: At the time, my toddler was two and a half years old. My husband was very supportive, and without his support, I couldn’t have done it, especially with the evening classes that ran from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m., sometimes being on call through those classes. So the reason I wrote it was so that if there’s anyone else in my position who’s considering doing an MBA, there are some practical life considerations to take into account before going into it.

Kevin Pho: Being a physician and getting an MBA, in terms of the job market, what kind of doors does that open?

Manpreet Samra: For one thing, it opened a lot of pharma doors for me, actually, maybe three pharmaceutical companies. It also opened up the door for some diagnostic company medical directorship positions. It opens up nonclinical work as well, again at the directorship level, for insurance companies like Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, et cetera. Now, the route that I took, I mean, I did interview with many places, but the route that I took was choosing to become a medical director of a brand-new kidney transplant program, because I did still love the clinical part, but I also did want more of the administrative and directorship role.

Kevin Pho: Now, for those physicians who do want to pursue leadership positions, is an MBA truly required? And if so, tell me exactly what kind of skills they teach you that we don’t necessarily get in medical school.

Manpreet Samra: Absolutely not. You do not need an MBA to go into a leadership role; that is probably what I realized. Certain classes and certain professors were very provocative. You use a different part of your brain that you don’t use in practicing medicine every day. And we did have leadership classes, a lot of self-assessment, a lot of self-awareness. We read a lot of books that may come under the self-improvement category, but it’s not that you can’t learn that on your own, reading the books, or even going through any of the leadership academies that are out there specifically for physicians or nonphysicians, for anyone in the health care field. So I don’t think you need an MBA to go into a leadership role. I think it helps, because it gives you tools and it gives you language. I think really that’s what it gives you, in a very defined setting, but you can learn those on your own as well.

Kevin Pho: So if I’m a practicing physician and I’m interested in gaining an MBA, I do a Google search, and thousands of MBA courses are available. Some are virtual, and before the pandemic, some are in person. What are some of the things that I should look for if I’m considering an MBA program as a physician?

Manpreet Samra: So taking one step back to know why you want to do the MBA, I think, would be the first question, right? So if you want to do it because you want to go into a leadership role in a hospital, then I would suggest looking at specifically a health care-focused MBA, and there are many of those out there. I will tell you that the MBA that I did was neither an executive MBA nor was it a health care-focused MBA. It did have electives where I could do health care courses, and I did. And I elected to do this because it cost me less than $5,000, to be honest with you, to do it. I did look at other MBA programs, such as Booth in Chicago and Kellogg, but the price tag of over six digits just wasn’t worth it for me.

Kevin Pho: We’re talking to Manpreet Samra. She is a nephrologist, and she wrote the KevinMD article “To MBA or not to MBA as an MD: a physician’s journey.” Manpreet, now that you got your MBA, is there anything that you know now that you wish you knew back before you started this journey?

Manpreet Samra: Yes. I think that time commitment, being prepared to have the time away from family. And if I could change how I had done it, I wish I had done it at a slower pace and not tried so hard to get through it. I feel like as physicians, our mentality is just go, go, go, do it, do it, check, check, check. That is what I wish I had told myself, so that instead of 22 months, if it took me 36 months, so be it.

Kevin Pho: And if a physician is interested in looking into the benefits and pros and cons of an MBA, what kind of resources, maybe online, do you recommend they take a look at?

Manpreet Samra: There is a book, and I’m sorry, I’m forgetting the author. It is MBA in a Nutshell. That was what I started off with. I kind of skimmed through this book, but I would start there. And then I actually googled a lot of this, and I found a lot of information out there, which is what led me to write the article. When you put in “MBA MD,” or you put in “MBA health care-focused,” there are 10 to 20 MBA programs that will come up. I did start an MD/MBA Facebook group, so they’re more than welcome to join that as well and can have their questions answered. And of course, you could reach out to me as well at [email removed by the editor] for any questions.

Kevin Pho: And when you told your colleagues that you were pursuing an MBA, what was their reaction?

Manpreet Samra: They thought I was crazy. They knew I had a very busy clinical practice. They knew I had a toddler and a family, and they were like, “There are only 24 hours in a day, so when exactly will you do this?” But those who knew me knew that I was very interested in business for a very long time, and so they were not surprised. But most of them were just questioning where the time commitment would come from. And what’s interesting now is what I’m enjoying the most and how I’m utilizing the MBA in addition to my directorship role: teaching medical students, residents, and fellows about personal finance, about health care strategy, about the business of medicine, as well as attendings.

Kevin Pho: And when you teach these medical students and residents about finance and the business of medicine, what’s their general literacy level before they meet you?

Manpreet Samra: It’s extremely low. The questions that come up are very basic, and these are the same questions I had when I started out. They’re very, very basic questions about 401(k)s and IRAs and Roth, those very, very basic questions. Even something like the way our taxes are done, the difference between marginal tax rate, I mean, all these very basic questions. And at the end of it, I think it ends up being extremely useful.

Kevin Pho: And my final question: What’s your take-home message you want to leave with the KevinMD audience?

Manpreet Samra: If your love is to continue lifelong learning, and that is one of your reasons for doing an MBA, by all means, have at it. I would say to do it in a very financially responsible way. And secondly, if you do decide to do an MBA, be sure to map out your time commitment and be aware of what that will be, so that you don’t burn yourself out.

Kevin Pho: Well, thank you so much for sharing your time and insight, and thanks again for being on the show.

Manpreet Samra: Thank you for having me, Kevin. Take care.

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