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Join Kim Downey, a physical therapist, and Michael Hersh, a gastroenterologist, and discover how coaching can help physicians navigate challenges, change their lives, and find personal and professional growth. Don’t miss their insights on finding the right coach, the impact of thoughts on feelings, and the benefits of supplementary materials. Tune in for an inspiring discussion on the profound impact of coaching in the medical field.

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Kim Downey is a physical therapist. Michael Hersh is a gastroenterologist.

They discuss the KevinMD article, “The power of coaching for physicians: transforming thoughts, changing lives.”

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Transcript

Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show. Subscribe at KevinMD.com/podcast and get CME for this episode by clicking on the CME link in the show notes. Today we welcome Kim Downey and Michael Hersh. Kim is a physical therapist. Michael is a gastroenterologist and physician coach. I’ve had them on individually, and it’s great to have them together. Both of you, welcome to the show.

Michael Hersh: Thank you, Kevin.

Kim Downey: Thank you so much for having us.

Kevin Pho: So I’m going to ask each of you just to briefly share your story and journey to where you are today. So Kim, why don’t you go first?

Kim Downey: Sure. So I’ve had cancer three times in the past couple of years, and there were some permanent unintended consequences from the first surgery, requiring additional medications and resulting in further complications, which led to many more doctors and many more tests.

So for reasons I’ll never know, about a year ago in March, a link to Michael’s blog appeared on my Facebook page. I have no idea why, but I clicked on it, and I thought, “Wow, this is really good.” He included a music video, and I thought he nailed it. He had been blogging for a few months at that point, and I read them all, and I started going to his site every Wednesday to read his latest post. Then last December, he shared that he was celebrating his year of blogging, and I thought to myself that I should let him know that his posts really resonated with me. I had even used a couple of his devotions for my women’s fellowship group, and they were really well received. So I sent him a private Facebook message, and he sent me the nicest response, and then we continued communicating a bit.

I knew from his website that he offered coaching for physicians, and one of my doctors had recently died, and I was really struggling. He seemed so nice, so I asked if I could pay him for a session to talk about my doctor, and he responded that he’d love to chat with me, and that he does a complimentary, no-obligation session for anyone interested in coaching. So on New Year’s Eve morning, he listened to me tell him the whole story, and he was really easy to talk to. Afterward, he even sent some takeaways, which I found very valuable.

And I think because I had clicked on Michael’s site back then, shortly after that a link to your site, Kevin, showed up, and I began reading all the posts, and I became concerned about physician well-being. I could relate to the difficulties physicians were spotlighting as a result of some of my own experiences as a health care professional. I wasn’t successful at the time in making an inroad with my local health care system to address these issues.

Michael and I continued communicating through email as I was trying to find my way, and shortly thereafter I told him I was afraid I was taking advantage of him. He assured me I wasn’t, that he was genuinely happy to help, because I was just trying to help other doctors. But then he asked if I was interested in pursuing coaching, and he thought it would be amazing for me. I knew I needed to do something, so I thought about it, and I said yes, and here we are.

Kevin Pho: All right, and we’re going to get more into that story in a little bit. But first, Michael, you’re a gastroenterologist and obviously a physician coach. So how did you get into coaching?

Michael Hersh: Yes, so I found coaching kind of similar to Kim, when I needed it the most. I was not somebody who came upon coaching and was all in from the get-go, thinking that this was what I needed. I have the typical story of having gone straight through my medical education and my training, getting the job that I had always imagined that I wanted, and I had the family, my wife, my kids, and the house I wanted. And I found myself kind of dreading work every day and not really being able to identify what the issue was.

Also, very similar to Kim, I happened upon some coaching-related Facebook stuff and then ended up going for a one-time session. It was helpful; I really thought it was helpful. But I got off the call, and I was like, “Nah, this isn’t really for me.” And it was my wife who basically said, “No, you absolutely need to do this.” When I circled back with that physician coach, he asked me the question that changed my life, which was, “If you don’t do this, what will change?” And answering that question really changed everything for me.

So I had my own experience with physician coaching, and what I noticed was that there weren’t a lot of male physician coaches in the space. And I thought, with 50 percent of my medical school class being men, there needed to be more male physicians out in this space talking about the benefits of coaching, about how there’s so much in life that we can’t control, but there are so many things that we can. And I think that’s what coaching empowered for me: being able to find the things that I can control. So that’s kind of my story of finding physician coaching and then deciding to be a coach myself.

Kevin Pho: Yes, so what you said, Michael, was pretty interesting. I interview a lot of physician coaches, and you’re right, most of them are female, and there aren’t enough male physician coaches out there. So why do you think that is? Do you think male clinicians have a little bit of hesitancy in terms of reaching out?

Michael Hersh: Yes, absolutely. I think our medical training kind of encourages loner personalities, right? We are trained that we can do everything by ourselves. Our entire livelihood is dependent on other people coming to us asking for help, yet we are trained to believe that we don’t need help, that we can just figure it out ourselves. And I think that is just kind of perpetuated by societal norms. I think women in general have an easier time asking for help when they need help, and men just try to figure it out on their own. And I think normalizing the fact that we all need help, and that sometimes the bravest thing we can do is ask for help, is an important part of my work in trying to promote physician well-being.

Kevin Pho: All right, let’s move on to the KevinMD article that Kim wrote. It tells more about her story, and it’s titled “The power of coaching for physicians: transforming thoughts, changing lives.” Now Kim, how did your article come together?

Kim Downey: Sure. Well, after we did 12 sessions of coaching, and I had made a lot of progress, and he just helped me with so many things, I decided to send him a thank-you note. So I wrote it and I sent it to him, and then I was like, “Wow, other people should know, other physicians, you know, how helpful coaching is.” So I asked him if it was OK, because the note felt a little bit personal, but I thought that if I wrote an article to you, because you had already accepted a couple of mine, then maybe more physicians would be able to see the benefits of coaching. So he said sure. So I included some of the thank-you note in the article, and I sent it to you with hopes that other physicians would be able to read it and maybe consider coaching when they hadn’t before.

Kevin Pho: So Kim, tell us in general: What are some of the things that Michael worked with you on?

Kim Downey: Well, one was, you know, my physician, one of my doctors, had died, and I was really struggling with that in different ways, and he just helped me with my thoughts about the situation and how to move forward, really. I feel like that’s what coaching is: It helps you find ways to move forward with things.

And also, because of my complicated medical history and some of the complications, I had been ruminating about a lot of things, and again, he just helped me with my thoughts about those things, and again, find ways to move forward. And even with the things I was trying to do to get involved with my health care system to help, I was kind of frustrated that I wasn’t really able initially to make inroads. But again, he just told me to keep up with my writing, keep up with my speaking, and keep making connections. And I just trusted the things that he said, and I kept doing it, and then things started to move forward.

Kevin Pho: All right, Michael, tell the story from your perspective. So when you received that outreach from Kim, tell us from your perspective what happened next.

Michael Hersh: Yes, so it’s so interesting, because we are sometimes just doing things, not realizing that there might be somebody else on the other side of the computer reading our work and listening to our words. And that’s kind of what I was doing. I was writing these blog posts and just kind of imagined that they were going out into the ether and nobody was actually reading them. And so when I got the message from Kim, I had never met Kim before, we had never connected before, and I was really surprised, pleasantly, and just elated that my words had connected with another human being. So when she wanted to connect, I was super excited to find out more about what she thought and what she was taking away from the blogs.

And when we initially spoke, I have to admit, it was just kind of a conversation. I don’t think either one of us thought that this was leading to a coaching relationship. We were just kind of new people who were chatting about experiences. But as we continued to have these discussions by email after that initial call, it became clear, and I think there are so many things that we do, that we think about, that limit ourselves. And so when Kim was having a lot of the questions and the follow-up emails, part of the reason why I thought coaching would be a good fit was that there were things where I could see her beliefs getting in the way of her progress, right? The things that she was holding on to were keeping her from moving forward.

So as she was just mentioning, she was looking to help her local physicians, and some of the things that we’ve worked on were how she can help her local physicians without necessarily being part of the local system, and options like that. And so we can shift our perspective a little bit. We can do the thing that we want, but maybe not in the way that we thought we would.

Kevin Pho: So Michael, you’ve been coaching for a while now, and you obviously have your own show and podcast where you talk to other clinicians and listen to their stories. What are some of the messages that you’re hearing over the last few months that you really want to share with the broader clinician and patient community that’s listening to the show?

Michael Hersh: Yes, so I think, number one, first and foremost, physician and clinician burnout is pervasive at this point, right? And I think the most fascinating thing about physician and clinician burnout is that it looks different for everyone. In addition to that, it can look different in the same person at different points in their life. And it all begins with awareness, so being able to take a step back and just recognize “Something’s not right here” is essential.

And I think one of the biggest drivers that I have seen in my own personal coaching is autonomy. Autonomy is a tremendous driver of physician burnout. I think we all went to medical school believing that we could do this, and we could be in charge, and nobody would tell us what to do, and that is not the reality of health care in 2023. And so recognizing that, and then, as we were discussing before, identifying the things that we do have control over, has really been essential for so many physicians on their path to wellness.

Kevin Pho: Kim, after getting coaching from Michael, you’ve really taken up a mantle and become an advocate for clinicians, really sharing stories of burnout and how coaching can benefit them. So I want to dig deeper into that. Why did you take up that mantle? Why did that resonate so much with you?

Kim Downey: Well, again, as a physical therapist, once we had the EMR, I was working in a couple of nursing homes, and I felt for the first time what I’d say was the burnout, the moral injury, and the loss of autonomy. I could totally relate to that. And with my own health issues, after I had the second cancer surgery, I did send my doctors thank-you notes, because I was like, “Wow, things are really bad right now.” And it was around that time that I found your site, and I was reading a lot of articles about burnout, and so I became concerned for my physicians.

And then I did leave my job in November 2021. My whole life I’ve helped other people. I was on the ambulance corps when I was 16 years old, and then I was a physical therapist for over 30 years. So just because I left my job, I still felt that need to help other people. And there’s also a little self-preservation, because now I need doctors, right? So I want my doctors to be happy and healthy, and I want them to stick around. So that was really it: When I was reading your articles about physicians being burned out, I was concerned about them, and I just wanted to try to find something that I could do to help.

Kevin Pho: And Kim, has there been a success story that you can share with us, where you’ve maybe changed a clinician’s mind, implored them to get coaching, moved their needle, and made a difference in their lives, either online or in person?

Kim Downey: Well, I don’t so much know if anyone has pursued coaching yet because of what I’ve said, but one nice story that happened was with a wonderful retired physician who wrote a book. I first saw it because he had included an excerpt on your website, and I reached out to him to tell him I enjoyed the book, and we started communicating. And then I ended up bringing his book to a bookstore, I brought it to the library, our book club read his book, and then we Zoomed with him. They loved him, he loved them, and then he told me that I inspired him to write another article too. So that was just one.

And then with the posts I’ve shared, I’ve just received many, many thanks from various physicians, that it just means a lot to them to know that there’s a patient who sees them, hears them, appreciates them, and understands their struggles.

Kevin Pho: So Michael, from that perspective, when a patient shows that gratitude to the medical staff, to clinicians, tell us what kind of difference it makes in their lives, to the clinicians, to the physicians.

Michael Hersh: Yes, so that’s actually interesting, because I can give you two perspectives. I can give you pre-coaching Michael, and I can give you post-coaching Michael, right? Pre-coaching Michael really would brush off the compliments and the gratitude, because I was so busy trying to do the next thing that I didn’t even really take the time to recognize the compliment. I remember the coaching session with my own physician coach where we talked about this specific issue, and how important it is to sit in the compliment, to sit in the gratitude, to really hear the other person.

And what I have recognized is that when I take a moment to stop what I’m doing, to really listen to a patient praise me and thank me, it changes the trajectory of my day. I can go from having a terrible day to having an amazing day, all with a couple of words. And I think, from a patient perspective, all any of us ever really wants is to be heard. When you are complimenting your doctor and they are not listening to you, or they are just moving on, clicking the next button, moving on to the next patient, there’s a sense of loss there, that they didn’t hear you. And so I think taking a moment as a physician to stop and listen to those patient compliments and points of gratitude is just transformative.

Kevin Pho: I want to go back to what you said earlier about how male physicians are sometimes a little bit afraid to show that vulnerability, take that next step, and seek help. So tell us a success story where you’ve helped someone overcome that and really move the needle in their lives.

Michael Hersh: Yes, so vulnerability is probably my favorite topic, and it is so because for me this was something I genuinely struggled with, and it has been probably the biggest part of my own coaching journey: leaning into the discomfort of vulnerability.

I’ll just give you a recent example of a physician that I’m working with who was struggling with community, and I don’t want to go too much into specifics, and with just feeling connected to people outside of his immediate family. He leaned into the discomfort of trying something new and meeting a new group of people, and he came back from that experience like a new person, reinvigorated from meeting all these new people, trying something different, and finding, essentially, a community and a tribe that he could be a part of. And it all started because he leaned into the discomfort of vulnerability. I think so many of us try to protect ourselves and not allow other people to see us, and the truth is, that’s all anybody ever wants. People are drawn to that.

Kevin Pho: We’re talking with Kim Downey and Michael Hersh. Kim is a physical therapist. Michael is a gastroenterologist and physician coach. We’re talking about the KevinMD article “The power of coaching for physicians: transforming thoughts, changing lives.” Now I’m going to ask each of you for some take-home messages that you want to leave with the KevinMD audience. Kim, why don’t you go first?

Kim Downey: With coaching, I thought to myself that doctors, including my doctors, shouldn’t have to pay for coaching; it’s the system that’s the problem. And after receiving coaching myself and realizing how valuable it is, I did a 180, and I now think coaching can be incredible for anyone who has something in their life they would like to change, or thoughts that are limiting them, which is pretty much everybody. And there are also free coaching resources for physicians. I’ve compiled a list of those, Kevin, and I will email that to you if you’d like to include it.

And it’s like having a personal trainer for your brain. It’s something that you generally can’t optimally do for yourself, which is why even the best coaches have a coach. And I fully understand both the real and perceived obstacles physicians face when they might benefit from mental fitness or mental health opportunities, and coaching can fill that need in a way that feels acceptable, when sometimes other resources might not feel that way, for various reasons. Executives and professional athletes appreciate the benefits a great coach can provide, and sometimes they even have more than one.

So coaching, and specifically Michael, has helped me so much. I wanted to spotlight this incredible resource for physicians who previously haven’t considered it yet could benefit immensely. So I have to end by saying thank you, Michael.

Kevin Pho: And Michael, end the episode with some of your take-home messages.

Michael Hersh: Yes, I think, just to piggyback on what Kim was saying, this is a complex problem, right? To say that the health care system needs to change: absolutely. And I think we’re starting to see, hopefully, some changes. But waiting for something else to change can be an exercise in futility. So there’s so much power that we have, so much that we can do on our own, if we just choose to take those steps.

And then, with regard to coaching, one of my favorite mottos or phrases is “You can’t read the label from inside the jar.” So have somebody else outside of you. It doesn’t have to be a coach; it can be a mentor, a therapist, anybody really, just to take a bird’s-eye view. We spend so much of our time in life looking at the microscopic level of things that sometimes just holding a mirror up to ourselves, taking a look, and seeing more broadly what’s going on can be tremendously helpful.

And then, just to the last point, Kim touched a little bit on skepticism, and I just want to say about skepticism: It’s totally normal. It’s totally healthy. And a lot of the thought behind the skepticism is that life can’t be better than it currently is, that this is just as good as it’s going to get. And I think an important question to ask yourself is: What if it could be better? What if this isn’t as good as it could be? Because when I asked myself that question, that’s when everything changed.

Kevin Pho: Kim and Michael, thank you so much for sharing your stories, time, and insight, and thanks again for being on the show.

Kim Downey: Thank you for having us, Kevin.

Michael Hersh: Thank you, Kevin. You take good care.