How this doctor found her passion in ballroom dancing [PODCAST]

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Meet Corinne Sundar Rao, an internal medicine physician who found her passion in ballroom dancing. After 14 years of practicing medicine, she transitioned into being a full-time hospitalist but still felt like something was missing. One day, she walked into a dance studio and was immediately captivated. Becoming a competitive dancer was more challenging than medical school or residency, but it became her outlet and a healthy distraction from medicine. Join us as Corinne shares her inspiring journey and the life lessons she learned along the way.

Corinne Sundar Rao is a board-certified internal medicine physician and founder, Legacy Physicians, which helps hospitals find well-qualified physicians at a much lower overhead than they would pay staffing agencies. She can be reached on LinkedIn and Facebook.

She shares her story and discusses the KevinMD article, “From science nerd to accomplished ballroom dancer: my story as a hospitalist.”

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Transcript

Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show. Rate and review at KevinMD.com/rate. Subscribe at KevinMD.com/podcast. Today on the show we have Corinne Rao. She’s an internal medicine physician. Her KevinMD article is titled “From science nerd to accomplished ballroom dancer: my story as a hospitalist.” Corinne, welcome to the show.

Corinne Sundar Rao: Thank you, Kevin. Thank you for having me.

Kevin Pho: So you’re an internal medicine physician. Tell me a little bit about your story and journey to where you are today.

Corinne Sundar Rao: Yes. So I started as an internal medicine physician, doing traditional internal medicine practice for several years, which involved the entire breadth of internal medicine: taking care of your patients not just in the clinic but when they get admitted to the hospital, and being in a call group with other internal medicine physicians. I feel like I was fortunate to have that experience. However, it got to the point where it was just unsustainable. The amount of time that it required was something that wasn’t possible to do. So I started looking at other options, and I decided I was going to become a hospitalist. That’s what I did for the last 8-9 years. I very much enjoyed hospital medicine. It’s challenging, it’s fast-paced, and I loved it and still do.

Through the COVID pandemic, things were very busy. As I looked around, I saw other physicians, even before that but more so after that, getting more and more tired and more discouraged, feeling like they were stuck and didn’t have options, and I started thinking, why is that? I think a lot of it may have to do with what we do with ourselves when we’re not at work. Do we have something that sustains us and keeps us going?

One of the things that led me to was to not work full time for any hospital system, but to kind of go out on my own as an independent contractor. Usually the option when you do that is to go through a locums company, find a position, and go work there. And then this crazy idea came to me: What if I just contact the hospitals directly, eliminate the locums company, and see where I get? And it worked for me. That led me to want to help other physicians know that this is something they could explore doing, and it would help them and the hospitals. So I created my startup company several months ago, and it’s exactly for this purpose. That’s kind of where I am. I set my own schedule. I have a few hospitals that I work for on contract, and it gives me a lot of flexibility.

Kevin Pho: So in a typical week, how many hours do you work?

Corinne Sundar Rao: It actually varies from month to month, Kevin, because there are some months where I will only pick up 9-10 shifts. There are other months where, you know, there are more shifts available, and I’m willing to do them, I’m ready to do them, and I do more. So it’s up and down. It’s definitely not like a seven-on, seven-off schedule, which I have my reservations about anyway. So it’s really nice to have the autonomy to pick what I want to do and when I want to do it.

Kevin Pho: And how many hospitals do you typically contract with at one time?

Corinne Sundar Rao: You always want to have more than one option because, you know, they may recruit, or things may just go away. That’s kind of the risk you take as not being a full-time employee. So I have four hospitals that I’m privileged with, and I’m currently working on a fifth.

Kevin Pho: So when you directly reached out to the hospitals outside of a locums company, what was their reaction when you first contacted them?

Corinne Sundar Rao: It turns out that a lot of them are not really aware, or don’t know, that, you know, this exists. They’re so used to either just recruiting for full-time positions or immediately turning to a locums company. Because I have a network of colleagues, you know, physicians, I used those contacts to get me in touch with the people who make decisions, and they were open-minded and willing to listen and give me a shot. And then I started learning about the business side, like, you know, contracts, what I’m signing, carrying my own malpractice, and all of that.

Kevin Pho: So on a typical contract when you’re in a hospital, how long is that, typically?

Corinne Sundar Rao: It’s very flexible. You’re not committing to X number of shifts per month. If you leave, both you and the hospital have a 30-day out. So it’s very flexible and gives you a lot of options, and that’s kind of the typical contract. There’s no number of hours you have to meet.

Kevin Pho: Now, you’re a hospitalist. Does this also apply to primary care? Can primary care physicians also directly reach out to hospital groups or private practices and arrange something similar?

Corinne Sundar Rao: Absolutely, Kevin. There are lots of clinics and outpatient practices that have gaps in coverage, or are waiting to recruit, or somebody had an emergency and has been out. Absolutely, I think that’s something on the outpatient side that not only can be done, but I would strongly encourage physicians to look into.

Kevin Pho: All right. So let’s talk about your KevinMD article now. Co-written with Aaron Morgenstein, it’s titled “From science nerd to accomplished ballroom dancer: my story as a hospitalist.” Now, how did this article come together?

Corinne Sundar Rao: So for many years I’ve had this passion for learning ballroom dancing. I grew up in India, and there were absolutely no opportunities for me to do any kind of dance or anything in the performing arts. Fast forward several years, and I decided, “You know what? Why not?” So I’ve been in the dance world for a few years now. I met Aaron online through some online physician spaces, and he has a passion for direct contracting as well. He encouraged me to write about my story, so that’s what I did. Aaron helped me to write my story, and then you published it, for which I’m very grateful and thankful.

Kevin Pho: Yeah, and now you’re here on the podcast, and we’re going to talk about that. So tell me about how ballroom dancing, your background in ballroom dancing, influences you as a physician.

Corinne Sundar Rao: Kevin, I cannot tell you how much it’s a part of my life. I think for me the most important thing is that when I step into the dance studio, I leave behind everything else. My previous work week, whatever happened there, any other worries or concerns I’m carrying, it just drops away, and I spend all that time just immersed in learning how to dance.

Kevin Pho: And how often do you dance, or how often do you practice?

Corinne Sundar Rao: As often as I can. Over the last three years, I’ve actually been going out of town to this teacher that I found. I actually travel to Chicago, and I know this sounds a little bit over the top, but he’s an extremely good teacher, somebody that I wanted to work with. He’s well known in the ballroom dance world. So I try to make that trip a couple of times a month, and more if I can.

Kevin Pho: And do you dance competitively?

Corinne Sundar Rao: Yes. There are many ways to do ballroom dancing. You can dance socially, you know. You can learn to social dance, and you can go to group parties and group classes. I learned about the competitive world of ballroom dancing, and I wanted to do it, and that’s what we do. Every week or weekend, there are two or three competitions going on in some part of the country, believe it or not. And you can do as much or as little as you want to.

Kevin Pho: So let me ask a prior question in a different way. Has your background as a physician helped you, hurt you, or affected you in any way as a competitive ballroom dancer?

Corinne Sundar Rao: This is a tough one. I actually thought, you know, that it would be easier, but it was exactly the opposite. I’m very good at learning, like medicine. It just comes to me. I can look at a page and I remember it. That’s how I got through med school. It just makes sense; it comes to me. With dance, not so much. I found myself struggling with all kinds of things: musicality, the posture, the timing. It just didn’t come easily to me. So whether my background helped me, I don’t know, but the discipline definitely does, because, you know, we have a lot of discipline when we’re going through med school, and in ballroom dancing, especially when you’re trying to compete, you have to have the same.

Kevin Pho: Now, did you start from scratch? I don’t remember if you said it earlier. When you were younger, did you have a background in dance?

Corinne Sundar Rao: I did not. I grew up in India, and there were no opportunities there. So yeah, I started as an adult from scratch, not knowing anything about it.

Kevin Pho: And how long did it take you before you were able to compete and dance competitively?

Corinne Sundar Rao: I actually entered my first competition pretty soon after I started dancing, because there are levels that you can do, and there are newcomer levels, etc. However, I feel that over the last couple of years, I’m getting a little bit more competitive. Previously, I felt like I was just so happy to even be part of it, you know, to be in this glamorous world, that I didn’t put as much effort into practicing as I could have and should have. And now I feel like I definitely want to do that, and that’s what I’m doing.

Kevin Pho: So take us into one of those competitions. You know, I’ve certainly seen movies and TV shows about this. So as a competitive ballroom dancer who started from scratch, what’s it like? Take us into one of those competitions. What’s it like for you?

Corinne Sundar Rao: Kevin, these competitions can run from a few days to even a one-day competition. If it runs for a few days, they’ll have different styles on different days, because there are different styles within the ballroom dance world. They usually start, believe it or not, early in the morning, because there are so many competitors and so many heats, and they have to get everybody in. So basically, you’re in a ballroom. It’s decorated very nicely. There are lights, there’s music, there are judges with clipboards who actually mark you, and there’s an MC who announces each heat. And then it goes all day. In the evenings, they usually have the professionals, which is just something that is amazing to watch. Every time I watch that, I’m just blown away by how good they are. And then you just get up the next day and repeat, depending on how many styles you’re competing in. I currently compete in three styles. There are dress vendors there, and there are hair and makeup vendors, because you have to have a certain look when you’re doing this. And for me, working in scrubs the rest of the time, it’s a treat to be in a completely different world.

Kevin Pho: One of the things you said earlier is that when you practice or begin ballroom dancing, that whole world of medicine completely melts away. Why is that important for you, to get away from medicine?

Corinne Sundar Rao: It’s so important, because if I don’t have that, I just don’t know how I would keep going and taking care of my patients if my brain and my mind didn’t have that time to decompress. I just don’t know how people do it. I don’t know how physicians do it. So I think it’s extremely important to have a passion that takes you away from the world of medicine for a little bit.

Kevin Pho: And then after you, say, go away for a competition and then come back to medicine, do you feel recharged, refreshed? Does that affect you in any way as a physician?

Corinne Sundar Rao: I do feel recharged and refreshed, and I’m absolutely ready to get back into the hospital.

Kevin Pho: Now, when you talk to your other physician colleagues, and I know you talk to a lot of physicians, in terms of what you do with your company and just among your local colleagues, do you find that a lot of them have a passion outside of clinical medicine like you do?

Corinne Sundar Rao: Some of them do. There are physicians who are doing things, you know, whatever it might be: playing golf, tennis. Some of them are, you know, runners who run marathons. They have different passions, like traveling. But there are quite a few, actually, who do not. They work the seven days on as a hospitalist, and the seven days they have off, a lot of it, they tell me, is time just spent recovering from the seven days they worked and catching up. Before you know it, those seven days are over, and they don’t have something else to turn to.

Kevin Pho: When you were telling your story, you said one thing that caught my ear. You said that it’s very difficult for physicians to practice full time these days. Why do you think that is?

Corinne Sundar Rao: I think it comes down to the fact that it takes away our autonomy. We’re working on somebody else’s schedule. We have no control over our time, and I think lack of autonomy and lack of flexibility is the biggest cause of what physicians are facing right now with the burnout, moral injury, and all of that.

Kevin Pho: There are a lot of physicians, however, who, you know, have a lot of debt, right? Or they have a mortgage to pay, and they may not be financially able to work less than full time. What kind of advice do you have for them? Because they’re kind of stuck practicing full time and exposing themselves to burnout and moral injury. What kind of tips and advice do you have for these physicians who cannot cut back?

Corinne Sundar Rao: You don’t actually have to cut back. That’s the amazing thing about this. I can work the same full-time hours I was working as a hospitalist if I want to. There are some months that I’ve actually done 15-16 shifts, just like I did when I was full time. So just because you’re not employed full time doesn’t mean you have to make less money, and it doesn’t mean you have to work less than full time. It’s very flexible. You dictate your schedule. You decide for yourself what you want and how much you want to do, and then you go out and find it.

Kevin Pho: Now, are there some areas of the country that are more amenable to this direct contracting than other parts of the country?

Corinne Sundar Rao: Kevin, I’ve found that, in general, with the bigger hospital systems in the bigger metro areas, it would be harder to try to do something like that, quite simply only because, I think, you know, they have enough physicians. They’re not hurting for filling gaps and things. And usually they all have a relationship with some big locums group or company, and that’s what they turn to. Other than that, I think if you’re open to being in a smaller to midsize or even a rural community, you’re going to find those doors are opening up much more easily.

Kevin Pho: We’re talking to Corinne Rao. She’s an internal medicine physician. Her KevinMD article is titled “From science nerd to accomplished ballroom dancer: my story as a hospitalist.” Corinne, what do you say to those physicians who say, “You know, I don’t have a passion. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years going through medical school and residency and going through my job. I just didn’t have time to invest in a passion, and I don’t know where to start”? What do you say to those physicians who just don’t know where to start and don’t know what that next step is?

Corinne Sundar Rao: I would say for them to look around. Talk to your other physician colleagues, or talk to your non-physician friends, actually. Just look around and be open. You might find something that you never thought would interest you. Try out different things, and you might be surprised.

Kevin Pho: Now, you are, of course, a competitive ballroom dancer. You mentioned golf. What are some examples of other passions that you’ve heard of physicians delving into outside of clinical medicine?

Corinne Sundar Rao: I’ve heard all kinds of things. I’ve heard of people doing, you know, a lot of traveling, sailing, all kinds of competitive sports, painting, and other forms of art. There are a lot of options out there: decorating, interior designing, all kinds of writing, all kinds of things.

Kevin Pho: Now, there are some people, some patients and physicians for that matter, who feel that doctors should only do medicine 100 percent of the time, and if they have a passion that’s not clinical medicine, maybe that makes them a little bit less of a doctor in their eyes. Now, what do you say to someone who thinks like that, someone with that mindset?

Corinne Sundar Rao: I haven’t had to directly encounter that, because any physician or even patient who has heard about this has always been very positive about it and wanting to know more. If there was somebody who questioned that, I would just tell them that it actually helps me to be a better doctor and take better care of you, because I’m also a human being, and everybody needs something that gives them a little rest, a little break away from their normal job. So it actually makes me a better physician.

Kevin Pho: And my final question, Corinne: Just tell us some of your take-home messages that you want to leave with the KevinMD audience.

Corinne Sundar Rao: Kevin, I want to tell the audience that if there is something that you wanted to do, do not wait. Just jump into it. Do it. Don’t wait. Don’t wait for the time to be right. Be open to possibilities. Don’t feel stuck. There are a lot of things out there. There are people you can meet, and your world can be just completely different. So that would be my take-home message.

Kevin Pho: Corinne, thank you so much for sharing your story, time, and insight, and best wishes on the dance floor.

Corinne Sundar Rao: Thank you, Kevin. It’s been great to talk to you.

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