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Join Diane Shannon, an internal medicine physician and physician coach, as we delve into the captivating story of Herbert, a monarch butterfly. In this episode, we explore the profound lessons it holds for personal and professional growth. Together, we discuss the parallels between Herbert’s transformation and our own life journeys, emphasizing the importance of patience, embracing natural processes, and gaining clarity before making significant decisions.

Diane W. Shannon is an internal medicine physician and physician coach.

She discusses the KevinMD article, “Discover the power of patience.”

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Transcript

Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show. Subscribe at KevinMD.com/podcast, and get CME for this episode by clicking on the CME link in the show notes. Today we welcome back Diane W. Shannon. She’s an internal medicine physician and physician coach. Today’s KevinMD article is “Discover the power of patience.” Diane, welcome back to the show.

Diane W. Shannon: Thank you, Kevin, it’s great to be back.

Kevin Pho: So Diane’s been on multiple times. Go to KevinMD.com/podcast to hear her story and prior episodes. But today let’s jump right into your most recent article, “Discover the power of patience.” For those who didn’t get a chance to read this one, tell us what it’s about.

Diane W. Shannon: Well, it starts with a story about a butterfly. My cousin had been raising butterflies, this was this past summer, and gave me a chrysalis to bring home and told me what to do with it, which is basically to watch it. And I watched it and it hatched, and then I was to wait 24 hours and then take it outside and let it go, so it could fly over to Mexico and do its migration.

And it came out and I was like, oh, this is great, tomorrow I’m going to let it go, I’m going to take pictures of it, this is amazing. And I take it outside the next day and I’m like, OK, I have my husband there with his phone ready to videotape this, because I’m sure as soon as I open the cage it’s going to fly out. And we open it and nothing happens. And I’m like, what am I doing wrong, why is he not going? And eventually, I tried to lure him out, it didn’t work. I said, OK, he’s not ready, went back inside. Tried again an hour later, it didn’t work.

And finally I thought, I have to get back to work, I have meetings coming up, but I really wanted to see this. And I realized as I was doing this that I was trying to rush something. I was rushing a natural process, that this butterfly knew far better how much time he needed to go through getting ready to fly. And so I went back into my meeting, and when I came back out he had gone.

But it really left this impression on me, how often do I want to skip ahead to the end result and not have that patience to let things play out as they’re meant to?

Kevin Pho: So I think that metaphor, that story, really resonates with me and a lot of clinicians. We always want to jump to the final product, sometimes it’s hard to let the process, as you say, play out. So through your coaching, your experience as physicians, what are some stories where physicians can take the lessons from that story and maybe have more patience in terms of letting things play out?

Diane W. Shannon: Well, I’ll talk about two physicians that I’ve worked with specifically, and this was specifically around job transition. So being really unhappy where you are, which many physicians are today, and coming and saying, OK, I am absolutely going to leave, and I’ve already started looking at job postings, but I’m getting inundated and I’m confused, and I think I want that one, but is that really what I want, or is that just going to be jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

And I’ve seen this happen when they jump too soon, and six months or nine months later they realize that was a mistake, and start all over again and make another job transition.

Whereas what I found is, if they slow down and take time to really pause and think about, what do I really want, and I have them ask questions, I ask some questions about, what kind of commute do you want, what kind of patient population do you want to work with. Let’s write the ideal script first, and then think about deal breakers, so things that if this showed up on a job description I would not even consider it. And then to kind of flesh that out over time and get more and more specific over time. Do some informational interviews with folks, connect with people through LinkedIn and just ask them, where are you, what are you doing, how is it going for you?

And as you become more clear, then you can be running towards something instead of running away from it. And just having that clarity makes such a difference. And so those are the examples that come to mind for me, and I talked about in the article.

But it can be in those moments, and I remember what it felt like when I was thinking about leaving and just so unsure, and I just want this to be over, I want to get into that better place, and just to pause and really take in the lessons from where you are before trying to make that leap.

Kevin Pho: So you mentioned some questions that physicians should ask themselves, especially in your example before they’re thinking about job transitions. What are some other ways they can manifest that patience? What are some techniques that you use to coach them to really think about and be more methodical about their decision making and what they want to do next?

Diane W. Shannon: I think, if you’ve ever seen the TED talk by Simon Sinek about the why, I think that’s huge, rethinking about, why am I doing this? And I heard this analogy recently I thought was so great, is, we can try to climb up a ladder in our career and then get to a certain point and realize we’re climbing the wrong ladder, right?

So if I’m someone who maybe wants to become tenured and my thing is research, and I want to be teaching and don’t care so much about the other. Or what if you’re someone who doesn’t want either of those paths, but you want to work with unhoused populations or prison populations? So making sure you’re climbing the right ladder based on what you’re passionate about and what really matters to you, because, as we’ve seen in the research, having that sense of meaning in your work is one of the most important protectors from burnout.

Kevin Pho: How difficult is it for physicians to have that patience, right, to take that breath, to ask those questions?

Diane W. Shannon: Well, I’ll speak for myself. I am not a patient person. And I think those of us who have gone through the hoops that we have gone through to become physicians are generally people who want to take action. We are self-motivated. And so I think it is challenging for us to slow down.

And I think we’re also so used to thinking about the next thing we need to do. When you think about starting early on in high school, we have that next hoop to get through just to become physicians, all those different places, we’re kind of in a way in tunnel vision, we’re just doing the next thing. And so taking that time to really pause and be patient and ask ourselves, what do I want? We don’t do that in training, right? That’s not part of what we do generally. I know I didn’t, and I’ve talked with many physicians who said, yep, I just did the next thing and here I am. Really pause and think about it, take some time, and have that internal, kind of that moment to look inside and think about, with introspection, what is it I really want, and am I heading in the right direction?

Kevin Pho: So tell us the role of peers or supports. And I know you’re a physician coach, so you certainly help physicians through this. So is this something that physicians can and should do alone, and if not, who can they turn to to help them bounce ideas off of and make sure that in fact their decision making or the direction that they’re heading is indeed sound?

Diane W. Shannon: Right. I think the most important thing is that it’s someone that you feel safe with, like that psychological safety. So that might be someone at work, it might be a colleague, it might be a mentor. And it might not. It might be that you kind of have to suss out the political situation, and it could be that you want to keep those questions about where you’re going and what you want outside of your current workplace.

In those moments I think it can be helpful to find others in a similar situation, in a similar field. I think connecting with folks through LinkedIn is great, and then finding people that can just say, hey, I see what you’re doing, I’m really intrigued by the work that you’re doing, would you hop on the phone with me for 20 minutes? And so many times people are willing to do that, just to get from other people what’s possible.

And then maybe it’s with your friends outside of your work situation, or family members, those you can really trust. Obviously there’s also coaches like me, mentors. But I think anyone that you feel safe with, really going through, having them ask you some hard questions, even, about what it is you want.

And I think one of the most important things can be picturing, if there were a table between us and there were little pebbles on the table and each one had a tag, and the pebbles were all the options possible and the tags were the consequences, putting all the pebbles on the table and recognizing that any option I choose is going to have consequences, so which is the one that fits me the best?

Kevin Pho: So tell us a story, either from your life or from one of the people that you coach, where you or they learned from not having that patience. Tell us that story, and what they or you have learned from the experience.

Diane W. Shannon: Well, I think again there, I think first about these two physicians I worked with. When they came to me they were already at the point of, OK, I’m looking at job descriptions. They were at that point and already interviewing, so they were already down that road, and took positions.

I’ll speak for one in particular, and that turned out to not be the ideal setting for her. It turns out this one has a very long commute, it’s just not going to be workable long term. And so here she is back at the drawing board saying, wow, I thought that was going to be it, I thought that was going to get me out of the situation I was in, which was a culture killer, an emotional killer, the toxic work environment she was in. But she leaped into something that is not going to work long term.

So now she’s back at the drawing board, and we’re starting with, what do you really want? If you were painting the picture, what would it be? You may not get that, but let’s start with the ideal. And so I think with that example there’s a lot of demoralization, and finances, of leaping into something, realizing it’s wrong, then getting yourself out, and depending on your contract.

Kevin Pho: Now, did she realize that the decision was too rash? Did she grow and learn from that experience?

Diane W. Shannon: Yes. And this time she is taking it slower. And we actually just recently talked about a timeline of, OK, if that’s when you want to be on to the next job, let’s think back about this process, and it’s going to be six, eight months probably. Which also gives her time eventually to give notice, and give plenty of notice and fulfill her legal obligations for that, but also to give herself time to really think about what she wants and do a search, so that she is proactively looking for something versus being bombarded by offers and then having to wade through them. So it’s also a way of her being empowered and taking the initiative to find what she wants, versus reacting to what’s thrown at her.

Kevin Pho: We’re talking to Diane W. Shannon. She’s an internal medicine physician and physician coach. Today we’re talking about the KevinMD article “Discover the power of patience.” Diane, as always, we’ll end with some of your take-home messages to the KevinMD audience.

Diane W. Shannon: Right. Well, I guess I would say, it is hard to have patience, and all of us are striving to move ahead and want to get there faster if we can. In those times when it really makes a difference, like a job transition, try to slow down, think about our why, what really matters to us. I think we can then end up with a better result. So sometimes by slowing down we actually get farther ahead.

Kevin Pho: Diane, as always, thank you so much for sharing your perspective and insight, and thanks again for coming back on the show.

Diane W. Shannon: Thank you.