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In this episode, we explore the urgent need to redefine physician identity in today’s health care landscape. Joined by health care executive Olivia Morris and physician advocate Kim Downey, we delve into the challenges physicians face in maintaining their well-being, the impact of systemic issues on their sense of self, and the steps needed to restore humanity in medicine. Tune in to discover how reclaiming identity can empower physicians and transform health care for the better.

Olivia Morris is a health care executive. Kim Downey is a physical therapist.

They discuss the KevinMD article, “It’s time for physicians to reclaim their voice and identity.”

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Transcript

Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show. Subscribe at KevinMD.com/podcast. Today we welcome Olivia Morris. She’s a health care executive. And of course we welcome back Kim Downey, a physician advocate who has connected me with so many people interested in that physician wellness space. We’re going to talk about the KevinMD article “It’s time for physicians to reclaim their voice and identity.” Olivia and Kim, welcome to the show.

Olivia Morris: Thanks for having us. Thanks, Kevin.

Kevin Pho: Perfect. So Kim, we’ll start with you. How did you find Olivia, and what made you connect me with her?

Kim Downey: Sure. So back in January our friend Dr. Adam Harrison, who, you know, we’ve had him on, we both commented on one of his posts, and then he said that we are two of his favorite people and he thought we should meet. So we did, and we talked for hours, and then we planned another conversation and we talked hours longer. And then I had Olivia on my YouTube channel with Dr. Amy Jo Pharaoh, who we’ve also had an article that I submitted to you, Kevin. And I thought it was a fantastic conversation, and then I asked Olivia if she would like to collaborate on an article, because I wanted to introduce her to you and I just think she has such important things to share.

Kevin Pho: Perfect. And Kim, what did you guys talk about in the initial conversation?

Kim Downey: Everything. And actually my husband’s dad is from Ireland, and Olivia lives in Ireland, and soon, hopefully with any luck, I’m going to meet Olivia and her husband in person in Ireland.

Kevin Pho: Wonderful. Olivia, you’re a health care executive. Tell us about your story and journey.

Olivia Morris: So yeah, I’ve been an entrepreneur for 20 years and fell into medicine about a decade ago, marrying my husband. But yeah, we went through our own tragedies in medicine, and it kind of landed me in the physician advocacy space. And from there I’ve built companies in health care, helped in other companies, and mainly just helped physicians, either helping them with their coaching, helping them build companies, helping them with their brand.

I recently was asked, what are you? And I said the only way I can define myself is, I’m a physician’s person. Like, if a physician needs someone, I’m just that person.

Kevin Pho: So you graciously contributed an article, “It’s time for physicians to reclaim their voice and identity.” So Olivia, what’s this article about?

Olivia Morris: I guess it’s a few things. It was a little bit of a brain dump, and allowing physicians to know they’re not alone. And obviously, as you probably know, there’s a mass exodus at the moment, and that’s obviously increasing over the next couple of years. And obviously what I see from the advocacy over the past decade, and physicians coming to me saying, look, I’m leaving, what do I do, I’m just seeing that so many of them lost who they were and why they’re in this position. A lot of them don’t know why they’re doctors, or should they stay in medicine, should they come out.

And it’s only through conversation they’re starting to find their voice again and find out who they are. And it’s amazing to see, on one side, because you’re seeing them play and get creative and find out, actually I’ve got all these hobbies, these cool things, and they’re reclaiming that. But I think what we see still in medicine is this, you must fit a box, you must be a certain way to survive medicine.

So I guess within the article it was, why can’t we bring humanity back to medicine? You know, there’s a lot of talk about AI and technology, but there’s not as much talk about the real common sense of medicine and going, you know, there’s being friends with people, and the social aspects, and all those kind of things. And I just wanted to put it out there to physicians and go, you know, you’re not alone. So many of you feel and think the same, and there are people out there that can help you. But you need to be you, unapologetically you, and find out your unique vision and thoughts and stuff coming forward.

Kevin Pho: Olivia, can you give us an example of one of those stories where a physician went to you, or you had a conversation with a physician, and they, as you say, lost their identity? Like, what exactly do they tell you?

Olivia Morris: Well, do you know, I have these conversations on a daily basis at the moment, I guess a lot of them. And if I was just to think about my husband, you know, it’s obviously the most personal story to me. It’s just that feeling of going into medicine and going, I’m obviously going into it to care for patients and to do my best, I want to do it. But then going through medicine, he wasn’t allowed to be that person.

And one of the stories he came to me with is, he had a five-year-old going into the ED, he was an ED doctor, and she passed away. But he was told, you have to go on to the next patient immediately, you have to go on. And he was in his early years and he was like, I didn’t know how to do that. And he lost himself to medicine. He was like, I have to be a robot to be able to survive.

And it took years, years. And obviously I’m buried in this world with coaching, I can do that, but even with my help and helping him get through it, he’s, I don’t know who I am anymore, because I was just medicine, I was just doctor blah blah blah. And you go, that story isn’t unique. Every doctor that comes to me goes, I’m just a cardiologist, I’m just this, and they identify as the title. And you go, you know, you had a name before this, before the title, and you had hobbies, you had friends. Where did it go? And they go, I don’t know, I didn’t even remember it going, but I don’t know who I am now.

And I see it more though, the ones that have been in 10, 15, 20 years, some in the 30 years, and they go, I don’t even know how I ended up here, because I don’t even like medicine. And you’re like, well, now they’re coming out. And I think now the conversations are happening about consultancy and them growing their own companies, it’s easier now. But now they go, Olivia, how do I do it, can you help me? And you’re like, I can help you, it’s OK. But they need to know that you don’t just jump. There’s a lot of people jumping on physicians now and saying, oh, you’re so skilled, you’ve got money, just jump. And you go, well, please don’t do that. Do it carefully and do it safely, because it’s very different out there for a physician, and it’s just going from a burning house to a different burning building. You’re like, just do it carefully and do it with thought.

Kevin Pho: So Olivia, that certainly rings true. One of the themes on KevinMD and my podcast of course is that physicians are more than their degrees. And I think, Kim, this is what you do as well, is that we need to share that physicians’ identity is beyond what they do in the exam room and the hospital. So Kim, when you hear Olivia’s story about physicians’ identity only being tied to medicine, does that ring true with the other doctors that you talk to and interact with in this space and on LinkedIn? Do you find that they’re confined to that box of medicine?

Kim Downey: Well, more so that they were. But when they become active on LinkedIn it’s often because they’re moving past that, and they were in that kind of place and they found, through coaching or a period of burnout, they found their own way to the other side.

Kevin Pho: And Kim, when you talk to other doctors, what other things have you seen them do outside of medicine, just to plant that seed of what other things doctors can do, for those who may be listening to us today?

Kim Downey: Sure. So some, when they received coaching, they went on to become coaches themselves, and then they support other doctors. And there are some that have dusted off an instrument, you know, they were in a band in high school, and I know a number of them that have gone back to taking music lessons or joining a band again. And there’s other ones who have pursued all kinds of hobbies. Like, one, while she couldn’t, didn’t have time to cook and always ordered out, and now she looks at that as an outlet, is just enjoying cooking for her family. So there’s just so many things. Really anything that any of us would enjoy, they are starting to enjoy again themselves.

Kevin Pho: And Kim, have you noticed a difference among this group of physicians who have broken out of the identity? Have you noticed a kind of a before and after, and how it made a positive impact on their lives?

Kim Downey: Yeah, so most of them I didn’t know before. I knew their stories, because again a lot of doctors thought that LinkedIn wasn’t for doctors, and it wasn’t until they started doing these other things that they were on LinkedIn. But now, yeah, it’s just made a huge difference. And then even some of them have just re-energized their practice for medicine, and they have a passion for that. Because at first you’d think, well, if you’re so busy being a doctor, like how do you have time for these other things? But it’s just finding joy in something else helps them also find joy in practicing medicine.

Kevin Pho: Olivia, one of the things that you mentioned that you did was help coach physicians to redefine their identity. So for these doctors who come to you and say all they know is medicine, and they want to perhaps see if there’s anything beyond that, tell us some of the steps that you take with them.

Olivia Morris: Well, first of all, we do a completely unplanned program, because I do high performance, where we just find out who they are, who they really are, what do they really enjoy. And we dive into that for weeks and weeks and weeks on end, because we’re trying to unravel everything they’ve been told they are. So we go back to, who are they as kids, what’s their family like, and you really, really deeply get to know them.

Then you get to allow them to explore and go, well, how do you feel about these things, what do you see in your future. We go through their vision, and how do they want to do it, what are they willing to do to get to it, and are they willing and ready to take this step today. And we just do that process with them.

But I can never sit there and say we tick boxes, because everyone is so unique. There’s some that have taken years to get to the same stage as somebody else took a month with. And you just go, you can’t rush anyone. Everyone, they’re going through their own problems, their own issues, and you go, we don’t know what we’re going to unravel until we get really far in. You go, there was something going on here.

But what I am noticing as well is how many physicians are going into physician coaching, because they’ve witnessed it, they’ve experienced it. And so many are coming to me for branding now and saying, well, not only you’re a physician coach and you’ve built it and you’ve been the advocate, so you know it, but how do I now become a voice, because there’s so many physicians becoming physician coaches? And you go, but there’s so many people that need your voice. Like, there is always space for you. But it’s brilliant, it’s actually beautiful, that so many physicians are saying I want to come out and actually just help my colleagues get through it. But they want to step back themselves, and you go, I think that’s brilliant, that so many are coming together and doing that now.

Kevin Pho: And Olivia, when you talk to these physicians, how difficult is it for them to break outside that box of medicine? Because as you know, people who are physicians, decades of training, and that’s pretty much all they know how to do. Tell us some of the obstacles they have in redefining their identity.

Olivia Morris: I think the biggest obstacle is that they actually don’t know what they want. So, you know, because obviously they started medicine at a young age. A lot of them come to me probably in their early to mid 40s somewhere, probably around the 20-year mark they’ve been in medicine. They don’t actually know what they enjoy anymore. They haven’t actually got hobbies. Some of them are divorced. They don’t really know if they’re really good with their kids. They just don’t understand. And because they don’t know that side themselves, and they go, well, I used to like this, and I used to like this music, and I used to like these places. And you go, what do you like now? And they go, I don’t know, because I haven’t done it for years. So that’s the obstacle that we’re finding, because for them to take that first step into, why don’t you try a new hobby, they go, but I don’t know what that means today.

And they also feel guilty. They feel guilty for sitting there saying, I’m going to take a day away from my family and medicine to go and do something for me. And they go, I’m not sure I can afford that, because I’ve either given it to medicine or I’ve given it to family with the last remnants of what I have left. So they very rarely have much for themselves. But you go, if you can’t do something for yourselves and energize it, how can you give anything back to your profession or family?

So that’s been the biggest, I’d say probably the number one obstacle, which is they don’t know where to start, because they completely lost themselves. There’s not very much left. And by the time they come, it’s a bit like what Kim said, by the time they’ve got to that stage, they’re on LinkedIn, they’re looking for stuff, they’re probably at kind of like a bit of a breaking point where something’s happened. They’re at the stage where they go, I’ve already identified I’m burned out, or this has already happened to me. We’re actually not getting them at the stage of it’s happening. Prior to that, they’ve already broken. And you go, you’re actually there with an empty shell that’s been kind of beaten down. They don’t know who they are, and you go, I’m working with very little here.

But yet there’s so much to them, because they need to perform. You know, at the moment I’m working with a surgeon, you’re like, he has to perform every day. There’s very little left in the tank, and you’re like, we have to make sure you’re OK, because you also need to be safe. So that’s an obstacle.

Kevin Pho: Kim, from the years that you’ve been in that physician advocate space, have you noticed that the needle has been moved? Have you noticed that more and more physicians are open to careers and hobbies and identity beyond medicine? Have you noticed an evolution of the space in the years that you’ve been involved in it?

Kim Downey: Well, it hasn’t really been long. So coming up this week it’ll be two years since my doctor took his own life, and it was after that that I felt a calling to support doctors. But I wasn’t really connected on LinkedIn until about less than a year and a half ago. So it’s already been in the last year and a half.

So it’s more retrospective, that I feel that the pandemic really opened all of this up, and before that I think not so many doctors were talking about it, and more suffering in silence. And I just feel like since the pandemic so many more doctors are talking about it, that I think we are starting to move the needle.

Kevin Pho: Olivia, for those physicians who are listening to us today and are interested in perhaps breaking out of that identity and trying something new and taking that next step forward, what kind of advice can you share with them in terms of what they should do next?

Olivia Morris: I would say just start very, very, very simply. Just start talking. You know, you don’t have to sit there and pretend to be something else or follow somebody else’s lead. Start talking about the things that you really are interested in, and try and just give value to the people that you really care about.

It doesn’t have to be on social media if you don’t want to be. You know, don’t feel forced to, don’t do the whole FOMO, but show up how you feel you want to show up. You know, if you want to go to events, if you want to reconnect with people again, do that, and don’t feel afraid to.

And if you want to go further, for example, like what we do now with consulting and stuff, if you want to know how to build your brand and get out there in front of people, that’s what people like myself do. We have a physician branding program where we take you on, we do the coaching to find out who you are, and we help place you and find your voice and know how to do it safely, and understand what those boundaries are. But also there’s plenty of companies like mine. We hire over a hundred different physicians at the moment in our company, where they’re aligned with values, and we’re helping actually give them different opportunities and stuff.

But you have to just start. It doesn’t have to be big, it doesn’t have to be bold, it doesn’t have to be on LinkedIn every day. But just start. Just start talking to people and communicating. But do what aligns with you, not what you feel somebody expects from you. If you’re a cardiologist that loves motorbikes, you don’t have to just go on LinkedIn and talk about cardiology. Talk about your passion, if that’s what lights you up and you’re absolutely who you are. Don’t pretend to be anything else. And just do it. Just write and just talk.

Kevin Pho: We’re talking to Olivia Morris and Kim Downey. Kim Downey’s been on multiple times, she’s a physician advocate, and she connected me with Olivia Morris, who’s a health care executive. And we’re talking about the KevinMD article “It’s time for physicians to reclaim their voice and identity.” And I’m going to ask now both of you just some take-home messages to my clinician audience. Kim, why don’t you go first.

Kim Downey: Sure. So I first want to speak to what Olivia just said. My physician coach, Dr. Michael H., talks about how it’s OK to let little pieces of yourself out there, and he uses a term that sometimes it might feel like a vulnerability hangover. But after you do that and you realize other people are just like you, that just can really, really help. What Olivia is saying is just let little pieces of the real you show. That’s so important.

And today my hope is to inspire even one person to take action, because we can all do something. And from the Healthcare Reinvention Collaborative I’ve learned about the two-loop system model. So to just tell you very quickly, when there’s any living system, like a health care system, there’s like a rise and a peak and a downfall. And many people would agree that our health care system has peaked and we’re in a downfall, so something is going to need to replace it. But our health care system can’t collapse, that would be absolutely catastrophic. So you need something to bridge the old system to the new system. So that’s where a group of like positive disruptors and innovators comes in.

And it’s not simple and there’s not one answer, and that’s what the Healthcare Reinvention Collaborative is attempting to do, is become a network of networks and connect change agents and build deep and wide bridges, so that we are going to be that change.

And I believe it was Dr. Michael Fine who said in a recent podcast of Dr. Todd Otten, and he said to tell you both, I was communicating with them this morning, that any huge system change has required a social movement, like the women’s suffrage movement or the civil rights movement. And likewise it can’t just be doctors advocating for system change in health care, it needs to be all of us. There needs to be a groundswell of people, patients, and others who intersect with health care to move beyond their lack of knowledge, their apathy, their cynicism, or all three, and join in raising your voice to move medicine forward and create a system where we all flourish. Patients and doctors and our relationships flourish, like we’re demonstrating right here right now with these kinds of conversations.

And I just want to end by thanking you, Kevin, and for all the incredible work that you’re both doing, and everyone else out there who’s working to move the needle in some way. I appreciate you all. I’d love to hear from you, and you can find me on LinkedIn.

Kevin Pho: And Olivia, we’ll end with some of your take-home messages.

Olivia Morris: I mean, I can’t really follow that, can I? I guess to me, all I ever want to say to physicians is you are never, ever alone. And all you can ever be in this life is be yourself, and just always align to what you want, whether that’s in medicine, outside of medicine. There is help to get you to be your absolute best and thrive.

And I promise you there’s people like Kim out there, and Kevin here, who help highlight all the issues that are happening. There is action happening in the background. All you have to do is open your eyes and see there are people and organizations out there, and we are trying to do everything we can. But we need you to talk to us and tell us what you need, because you’re there. So when you use your voice and you can say I need this, know that we’re listening. And that’s all I want to say to them. You are never on your own.

Kevin Pho: Olivia and Kim, thank you so much for sharing your perspective and insight, and thanks again for coming on the show.

Olivia Morris: Thank you.

Kim Downey: Thanks, Kevin.